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Delta wing question
- khcheung70
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20 Nov 2012 14:31 - 20 Nov 2012 14:38 #3025
by khcheung70
Delta wing question was created by khcheung70
I am able to setup the delta wing config with mixing AIL and ELE. When moving ailreon stick, the CH2 and CH3 are moving in opposite direction, which is correct. However, when doing ailreon trim, the CH2 and CH3 are moving in same direction. Did I miss anything here? Or this is a bug in the code?
I attached the config file. You can try to move the trim to see the problem.
Jimmy
I attached the config file. You can try to move the trim to see the problem.
Jimmy
Last edit: 20 Nov 2012 14:38 by khcheung70. Reason: add file
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- FDR
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20 Nov 2012 15:33 #3034
by FDR
Replied by FDR on topic Delta wing question
Sorry for the noob question, but I do not have any planes...
Do you want the trims to work this way: the elevator trim should move both servos in the same direction, while the aileron trim should move them in the opposite direction, just like the sticks, right?
IMO there is no simple way to do it, but I would try this:
Disable the trims on all complex mixer pages of ELE and AIL channels with the button at the bottom.
Make two virtual channels for the two trims, then add or subtract (add the inverted value) to the appropriate channels...
Do you want the trims to work this way: the elevator trim should move both servos in the same direction, while the aileron trim should move them in the opposite direction, just like the sticks, right?
IMO there is no simple way to do it, but I would try this:
Disable the trims on all complex mixer pages of ELE and AIL channels with the button at the bottom.
Make two virtual channels for the two trims, then add or subtract (add the inverted value) to the appropriate channels...
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- PhracturedBlue
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20 Nov 2012 15:57 #3039
by PhracturedBlue
Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic Delta wing question
If you use servo-reverse on one of the servos (rather than a negative scalar), you should get the proper trim behavior.
so you'd need:
ch2:
ail + ele
ch3: ail + ! ele, servo reversed
It looks like a bug though. I THINK that if you use a negative src, we should also apply a negative trim, and we don't do it today.
I haven't realy given it much thought though. If this is the behavior you expect, let me know (and open a bitbucket ticket on it). I'm not sure this is always the right thing to do, so if anyone else has input, it'd be appreciated.
so you'd need:
ch2:
ail + ele
ch3: ail + ! ele, servo reversed
It looks like a bug though. I THINK that if you use a negative src, we should also apply a negative trim, and we don't do it today.
I haven't realy given it much thought though. If this is the behavior you expect, let me know (and open a bitbucket ticket on it). I'm not sure this is always the right thing to do, so if anyone else has input, it'd be appreciated.
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- FDR
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20 Nov 2012 15:57 - 20 Nov 2012 16:08 #3040
by FDR
Replied by FDR on topic Delta wing question
So, I made this.
It might effect in the wrong direction, but it will show how to do it...
EDIT: Yep, PB's solution is much simpler, if it works...
I used to overcomplicate things...
It might effect in the wrong direction, but it will show how to do it...
EDIT: Yep, PB's solution is much simpler, if it works...
I used to overcomplicate things...
Last edit: 20 Nov 2012 16:08 by FDR.
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- khcheung70
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20 Nov 2012 20:05 #3059
by khcheung70
Replied by khcheung70 on topic Delta wing question
If I do the servo-reverse, it did fix the ailreon problem. But the problem will change to elevator now. The elevator trim need to move the CH2 and CH3 in different direction.
I don't know if the virtual channels can help this problem. I tried that but this is no effect when I move the trim button.
I don't know if the virtual channels can help this problem. I tried that but this is no effect when I move the trim button.
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- NewJocker
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20 Nov 2012 21:01 #3060
by NewJocker
Replied by NewJocker on topic Delta wing question
So,
I use this method:
Sticks drive 2 virtual chanels (one for elev, an other for Aileron) with DRCurve or complex. Easy to add DR or/and Expo on Sticks.
This 2 Virtuals Channels are ADD to Elev servo and SUB to Ail servo with ComplexCurv at 75% both(for a max travel servo of 150%) and no trim. Ail or elev must be reverse in channel conf.
I use this method:
Sticks drive 2 virtual chanels (one for elev, an other for Aileron) with DRCurve or complex. Easy to add DR or/and Expo on Sticks.
This 2 Virtuals Channels are ADD to Elev servo and SUB to Ail servo with ComplexCurv at 75% both(for a max travel servo of 150%) and no trim. Ail or elev must be reverse in channel conf.
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- FDR
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20 Nov 2012 21:45 #3061
by FDR
Have you tried my model.ini?
Replied by FDR on topic Delta wing question
khcheung70 wrote: If I do the servo-reverse, it did fix the ailreon problem. But the problem will change to elevator now. The elevator trim need to move the CH2 and CH3 in different direction.
I don't know if the virtual channels can help this problem. I tried that but this is no effect when I move the trim button.
Have you tried my model.ini?
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- khcheung70
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21 Nov 2012 01:54 #3063
by khcheung70
Replied by khcheung70 on topic Delta wing question
FDR,
Yes, I tried that. It doesn't work because the trim problem now change to elevator. If I trim the elevator, both flaps will go different direction.(one side up, one side down).
Here is the tricky thing to trim delta wing.
To trim elevator:
Both flaps need to go up and down together.
To trim ailreon:
One flap goes down, the other flap goes up.
Yes, I tried that. It doesn't work because the trim problem now change to elevator. If I trim the elevator, both flaps will go different direction.(one side up, one side down).
Here is the tricky thing to trim delta wing.
To trim elevator:
Both flaps need to go up and down together.
To trim ailreon:
One flap goes down, the other flap goes up.
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- Hexperience
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21 Nov 2012 04:20 #3067
by Hexperience
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Replied by Hexperience on topic Delta wing question
Hi FDR and PB.
I was trying this config in the emulator. The channel monitor on the main page and the one in the model config show different results. Not sure if that is by design, or just a quirk of the emulator.
I'll try it in the devo and see if it does the same thing.
I was trying this config in the emulator. The channel monitor on the main page and the one in the model config show different results. Not sure if that is by design, or just a quirk of the emulator.
I'll try it in the devo and see if it does the same thing.
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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- PhracturedBlue
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21 Nov 2012 04:29 #3068
by PhracturedBlue
Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic Delta wing question
So, to me this appears to be a bug. If you invert a source, it should also invert how the trim is applied to that source. If there are no complaints, I'll check in a fix for this shortly.
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- Hexperience
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21 Nov 2012 04:57 - 21 Nov 2012 05:01 #3069
by Hexperience
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Replied by Hexperience on topic Delta wing question
Here is my attempt at the delta wing. Note the channel display in the model config is different than the main page.
I have the scale at %50 to avoid going over 100% in the corners.
Also, I was flipping around and playing with the settings. I the radio rebooted a couple of times.
I can try to hunt down and replicate the cause.
I have the scale at %50 to avoid going over 100% in the corners.
Also, I was flipping around and playing with the settings. I the radio rebooted a couple of times.
I can try to hunt down and replicate the cause.
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Last edit: 21 Nov 2012 05:01 by Hexperience.
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- FDR
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21 Nov 2012 05:24 #3070
by FDR
Sorry! I tried in the emulator, and it worked allright. It's strange...
Replied by FDR on topic Delta wing question
khcheung70 wrote: FDR,
Yes, I tried that. It doesn't work because the trim problem now change to elevator. If I trim the elevator, both flaps will go different direction.(one side up, one side down).
Sorry! I tried in the emulator, and it worked allright. It's strange...
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- FDR
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21 Nov 2012 05:28 #3071
by FDR
Yep, applying the trim in the right direction for the inverted channels would be great.
However I tried to avoid this problem in my config, but khcheung70 reported, it doesn't work.
I made it in the emulator, and seamingly it works different than the real tx.
At least it maps to different the keys, then it should, I think...
Replied by FDR on topic Delta wing question
PhracturedBlue wrote: So, to me this appears to be a bug. If you invert a source, it should also invert how the trim is applied to that source. If there are no complaints, I'll check in a fix for this shortly.
Yep, applying the trim in the right direction for the inverted channels would be great.
However I tried to avoid this problem in my config, but khcheung70 reported, it doesn't work.
I made it in the emulator, and seamingly it works different than the real tx.
At least it maps to different the keys, then it should, I think...
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- PhracturedBlue
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21 Nov 2012 07:10 #3072
by PhracturedBlue
Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic Delta wing question
That doesn't sound good. I treid to read through the above, but, I didn't understand the difference between what happens in the Tx and the emulator. I'll try it myself tomorrow, but a concise description of the differences would help.FDR wrote: However I tried to avoid this problem in my config, but khcheung70 reported, it doesn't work.
I made it in the emulator, and seamingly it works different than the real tx.
At least it maps to different the keys, then it should, I think...
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- Hexperience
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21 Nov 2012 11:39 - 21 Nov 2012 11:46 #3075
by Hexperience
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Replied by Hexperience on topic Delta wing question
Using the ini file I posted above (model7.ini)
- On the devo the trims work as they should (khcheung70 try that ini on your devo and see if it trims the way it should)
- The display of channels on the channel monitor is different than on the main page. (this is the case on the EMU as well)
- In the EMU the KEYS for trim do not match the stick keys with shift held down. For example E and D are Elevator, but SHIFT E and D trim the Rudder. (obviously not an issue on the devo)
-In the EMU the trims do not work as intended. As already pointed out the one of them doesn't reverse. *** edit. I think the trims are fine, it's the KEYS in the EMU that are the problem. AIL is on R and F, but trim for that channel is on shift W and S. I think if the KEYS are worked out the EMU might act as expected.
So there is more than 1 issue being discussed and might be why there is some confusion about it.
To summerize:
- EMU trim keys problem
- channel monitor problem which is the same on emu and tx
- On the devo the trims work as they should (khcheung70 try that ini on your devo and see if it trims the way it should)
- The display of channels on the channel monitor is different than on the main page. (this is the case on the EMU as well)
- In the EMU the KEYS for trim do not match the stick keys with shift held down. For example E and D are Elevator, but SHIFT E and D trim the Rudder. (obviously not an issue on the devo)
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So there is more than 1 issue being discussed and might be why there is some confusion about it.
To summerize:
- EMU trim keys problem
- channel monitor problem which is the same on emu and tx
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Last edit: 21 Nov 2012 11:46 by Hexperience.
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- Hexperience
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21 Nov 2012 11:54 - 21 Nov 2012 11:55 #3077
by Hexperience
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Replied by Hexperience on topic Delta wing question
- The channel monitor on the main page does not invert the channel when reversed. Try this; normal elevator up and down-> both monitors show up and down. Revers the server setting. Channel monitor in the model page shows correctly, main page still shows up for up.
(Is the channel monitor on the main page showing stick input movements or channel output?)
(Is the channel monitor on the main page showing stick input movements or channel output?)
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Last edit: 21 Nov 2012 11:55 by Hexperience.
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- khcheung70
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21 Nov 2012 14:48 #3080
by khcheung70
Replied by khcheung70 on topic Delta wing question
Finally, I got it working with building two virtual channels. It is not a directive way but at least it works on my plane. Thanks everyone give me the idea and support.
You can try my config file. You can see it in the CH2 and CH3 display bar. Now, the both ailreon stick and trim button have the same effect.
You can try my config file. You can see it in the CH2 and CH3 display bar. Now, the both ailreon stick and trim button have the same effect.
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- PhracturedBlue
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21 Nov 2012 15:41 #3081
by PhracturedBlue
The channel page is really for debug, so you want to see what is actually being sent. So I apply the reverse there.
I have also committed the change that trims will be reversed when the corresponding mixer src is reverse.
Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic Delta wing question
Ahh. This is on purpose. The most common reason for using servo-reverse is thatthe servo doesn't move the direction you want it to (up is CW vs CCW). So on the main page, you don't want to see the reverse applied on the bar, since max-stick is still max-stick.Hexperience wrote: - The channel monitor on the main page does not invert the channel when reversed. Try this; normal elevator up and down-> both monitors show up and down. Revers the server setting. Channel monitor in the model page shows correctly, main page still shows up for up.
The channel page is really for debug, so you want to see what is actually being sent. So I apply the reverse there.
That is indeed a bug and has been fixed- In the EMU the KEYS for trim do not match the stick keys with shift held down. For example E and D are Elevator, but SHIFT E and D trim the Rudder. (obviously not an issue on the devo)
I have also committed the change that trims will be reversed when the corresponding mixer src is reverse.
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- PhracturedBlue
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21 Nov 2012 15:42 #3082
by PhracturedBlue
Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic Delta wing question
Thanks. We should make a template for delta-wing aircraft (though probably based on the fixed code) to make it easier to setup in the future.
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- Hexperience
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21 Nov 2012 16:40 - 21 Nov 2012 17:21 #3083
by Hexperience
it must be the way I did my config... starting from scratch
If I do it without any virtual channels and only with mixes it behaves perfectly. Attached is a simple delta wing, very little config needed and the trims work correctly now (thanks PB)
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Replied by Hexperience on topic Delta wing question
PhracturedBlue wrote:
Ahh. This is on purpose. The most common reason for using servo-reverse is thatthe servo doesn't move the direction you want it to (up is CW vs CCW). So on the main page, you don't want to see the reverse applied on the bar, since max-stick is still max-stick.Hexperience wrote: - The channel monitor on the main page does not invert the channel when reversed. Try this; normal elevator up and down-> both monitors show up and down. Revers the server setting. Channel monitor in the model page shows correctly, main page still shows up for up.
The channel page is really for debug, so you want to see what is actually being sent. So I apply the reverse there.
it must be the way I did my config... starting from scratch
If I do it without any virtual channels and only with mixes it behaves perfectly. Attached is a simple delta wing, very little config needed and the trims work correctly now (thanks PB)
There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Last edit: 21 Nov 2012 17:21 by Hexperience.
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