Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

domcars0
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12 Dec 2012 18:48 - 12 Dec 2012 19:08 #3944 by domcars0

Replied by domcars0 on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

vlad_vy wrote:
domcars0 wrote:
vlad_vy wrote: Why not use 3-point curve? Scale = 120%, 1-point = -92%, 2-point = 0%, 3-point = +100%. It's equal -110% - 0% - +120%.
vlad_vy : I know that it's possible to implement the curve from my picture with the actual mixer, the issue is not here ....
Imagine now that I want EXP/DR curves (not 1-to-1) or complexe.. with the same scales and Min/Max... how can I do that easily? Yes it's possible with 13Pts curves but my brain is not a Cray

It's possible, but 3-point curve will be different (always positive). Scale=120%, Complex mix (4 pages) -> EXPO curve 1 (Mux:replace) -> EXPO curve 2 (Mux:replace) -> EXPO curve 3 (Mux:replace) -> 3-point curve (+92% - 0 - +100%)(Mux:mult).

vlad_vy : This is NOT the same, believe me. The Mux:3-point-curve is apply on a function (For example : in heli 120 swashmix, ELE is a function that acts on 3 servos!!) ... the 'scale' channel is apply on (only) a servo (see what I said about subtrims and trims)

Devo 10 (+7e) owner. It's mine, please don't touch it with your big fingers

Last edit: 12 Dec 2012 19:08 by domcars0.

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PhracturedBlue
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12 Dec 2012 20:51 - 12 Dec 2012 20:53 #3949 by PhracturedBlue

Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

FDR wrote:
PhracturedBlue wrote: So, If I get rid of scale, rename min/max to travel-adjust (and if they are the same they'll be linked such that changing one changes both), and disable these when in Cyclic (where your only control is the swash-mix) then it seems that will solve the issues.
Agreed?
If I understand well, not just rename, but make it to scale AND limit the channel output...

Assuming I understand what Domcars wants, it is pretty much impossible with our current mixer to implementa case where the channel is scaled so that the servo-travel is the maximum value that can be achieved by the servo, and no clipping occurs. Doing so requires knowing what the max value is for a given channel so that you can scale without clipping. But the mixer basically makes that impossible to calculate, so doing scaling without clipping is not possible.

So...If your channel is set with a max value = 100% and the servo-travel is set to 150, the new value is 150%
If the channel has a max value of 80%, we would rescale it so that the new max is 120% despite the travel adjust being written as '150'
If the channel has a max value of 150% (say for CCPM), scaling will result in 225% servo motion.

Now, we can choose to either clip or not clip.
If we don't clip, then above is what we have, and you need to be sure that the values are set so that no possible combination of inputs can put the servo into a position that causes damage. However, you do not get loss of control (assuming the servos can actually perform what is being requested of them)

If we clip, we ensure that the servos will never go farther than the specified limit, but with the potential of having some part of the stick which has no impact on the servos.

Providing a positive and negative scalar (i.e. servo travel) will allow for better control than you can get today (although as vlad pointed out, there are ways of achieving most anything you want today...they are just not ideal), but it does not address the confusion that exists with the difference of min/max and scale.

So I am proposing to do exactly what suvsuv did: remove the ability to set servo limits, and instead only allow scaling of positive and negative (seperately). That is what I meant in my previous post despite not stating it clearly. It is then required thatthe operator ensure that no combination of inputs can push the servos 'too far', the Tx is out of that game.

Also: If you want to discuss suvsuv's new gui, please create a new topic for it, it isn't relevant here except in how it applies to servo scaling

Last edit: 12 Dec 2012 20:53 by PhracturedBlue.

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PhracturedBlue
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12 Dec 2012 20:56 - 12 Dec 2012 20:56 #3950 by PhracturedBlue

Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

domcars0 wrote: vlad_vy : This is NOT the same, believe me. The Mux:3-point-curve is apply on a function (For example : in heli 120 swashmix, ELE is a function that acts on 3 servos!!) ... the 'scale' channel is apply on (only) a servo (see what I said about subtrims and trims)

sure, but if you set cyclic1 to a virtual channel (say 13), you can then use that as an input for Ch1, and apply a 3-point curve, thus achieving the goal. But it is certainly an annoying way to go about it.

Last edit: 12 Dec 2012 20:56 by PhracturedBlue.

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FDR
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12 Dec 2012 21:07 #3951 by FDR

Replied by FDR on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

Well, we've got a very interesting discussion here.

I think the consensus was that the "travel adjust" values don't have to limit at all, but there should be two values for the upper and lower half.

I still see uses for the min/max, but then they should be named more specifically, for example "Min limit" and "Max limit", and probably could have the default of "Inhibited", or the absolute maximum value at which we will still limit the output to fit into the protocol's numeric format.

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domcars0
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12 Dec 2012 21:12 - 12 Dec 2012 21:18 #3952 by domcars0

Replied by domcars0 on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

PhracturedBlue wrote: So I am proposing to do exactly what suvsuv did: remove the ability to set servo limits, and instead only allow scaling of positive and negative (seperately). That is what I meant in my previous post despite not

Also: If you want to discuss suvsuv's new gui, please create a new topic for it, it isn't relevant here except in how it applies to servo scalingvestating it clearly. It is then required thatthe operator ensure that no combination of inputs can push the servos 'too far', the Tx is out of that game.

PB : Thank you, this is what I think is better for Deviation (and what I want

)..
No more servo limits, but two scales (pos & neg) : I named it 'Travel adjust'.
And yes your proposal using a virtual channel as input of the Channel 1, which is just the vlad_vy 3-points-curve, seems to be a real alternative ... but little bit fun

Devo 10 (+7e) owner. It's mine, please don't touch it with your big fingers

Last edit: 12 Dec 2012 21:18 by domcars0.

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NewJocker
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12 Dec 2012 21:15 #3953 by NewJocker

Replied by NewJocker on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

I like spektrum simplicity, so, just do simple:
For channel configuration only 3 values:
Subtrim to zeroing servo arm when stick is centered,
Min and max values for min or max servo arm travel when stick is on full push or pull, with 100% for normal full travel and 150% for full mechanical servo travel.

BUT, this is only a linear conversion stick-servo travel. Prog with curves can override this min-max values to a max of 150% (mechanical value). eg: On my DX8, when i choose delta mixing, aileron have a max travel of 75%, and Elev have 75% too, do a sum of 150%.

I thinks channel on monitor screen must have a min/max of 150% with a mark at 100% to control travel. Like on Spektrum TX.

The Walkera 2801pro work in the same way.

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rototophe
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12 Dec 2012 22:39 - 13 Dec 2012 00:37 #3955 by rototophe

Replied by rototophe on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

Not to add any confusion here but I'd still see a value in the setting min/max values in the firmware.

The mixer being what it is, way more powerful and complex than conventional mainstream radios, can be intimidating to some people and during the learning curve I believe it can be very easy to a new user to unintentionally set complex mixers (with add and multiply) that will end up in insane travel values that can actually damage on-board hardware.

As a pilot, knowing what you need to do to set up your machine hardware-wise is one thing, mistakes programming the radio by lack of a good comprehension of the software system is another thing ....

If ever possible I suggest keeping the min/max limits and give the user the ability to toggle them on/off depending on how comfortable they feel with the software system.

Last edit: 13 Dec 2012 00:37 by rototophe.

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sbstnp
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12 Dec 2012 23:23 #3957 by sbstnp

Replied by sbstnp on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

rototophe wrote: The mixer being what it is, way more powerful and complex than conventional mainstream radios, can be intimidating to some people and during the learning curve I believe it can be very easy to a new user to unintentionally set complex mixers (with add and multiply) that will end up in insane travel values that can actually damage on-board hardware.

I think it's a RTFM thing. If you don't know how to handle things, don't do it. We don't need nanny features. Probably a beginner would not set limits and still break things, and there goes out the window dev time that could be spent on other things.

Those are all the wrong reasons for asking for something, IMO. Tech reasons? I'm all for it.

Devo 10 + 4in1
~~Spektrum Dx9~~
FrSky Taranis + TBS Crossfire

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rototophe
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13 Dec 2012 00:11 - 13 Dec 2012 00:39 #3959 by rototophe

Replied by rototophe on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

sbstnp wrote: I think it's a RTFM thing. If you don't know how to handle things, don't do it. We don't need nanny features.

Those are all the wrong reasons for asking for something, IMO. Tech reasons? I'm all for it.

Interesting approach.

Do you ever consider that others, god forbid, may not be as intelligent and proficient as you are and that, maybe, they DO need what you call nanny features even if it's only for a short while (like the way most of us do learn to ride a bike when we are little kids).

A lot of users, I believe, come to Deviation because of the multiple protocol support and have NO CLUE how to work with the mixer. Should they be excluded of the Deviation public because they just are too dumb in your eyes? I find that a little harsh to say the least.

I was just, in all humility, suggesting to keep the feature as default (since it's already there and does not require any additional work) and give the user the ability to check it out of the mixer equation if they feel that is what they need to do to achieve what they want.

So I don't see where they issue is. You'd be happy, they newbies won't ruin their hardware if they screw up with the software and will be happy as well.

So, really, I don't understand what your problem is.

With that kind of thinking there won't be handicapped parking!

Last edit: 13 Dec 2012 00:39 by rototophe.

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sbstnp
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13 Dec 2012 01:35 #3963 by sbstnp

Replied by sbstnp on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

rototophe wrote:
sbstnp wrote: I think it's a RTFM thing. If you don't know how to handle things, don't do it. We don't need nanny features.

Those are all the wrong reasons for asking for something, IMO. Tech reasons? I'm all for it.

Interesting approach.

Do you ever consider that others, god forbid, may not be as intelligent and proficient as you are and that, maybe, they DO need what you call nanny features even if it's only for a short while (like the way most of us do learn to ride a bike when we are little kids).

A lot of users, I believe, come to Deviation because of the multiple protocol support and have NO CLUE how to work with the mixer. Should they be excluded of the Deviation public because they just are too dumb in your eyes? I find that a little harsh to say the least.

I was just, in all humility, suggesting to keep the feature as default (since it's already there and does not require any additional work) and give the user the ability to check it out of the mixer equation if they feel that is what they need to do to achieve what they want.

So I don't see where they issue is. You'd be happy, they newbies won't ruin their hardware if they screw up with the software and will be happy as well.

So, really, I don't understand what your problem is.

With that kind of thinking there won't be handicapped parking!

Apologies if you feel insulted. Not my intention, keep in mind that English is not my first language so I may screw things up.

Still, let me put it in other words for you:

"don't know how to handle" = you don't have the knowledge

It doesn't mean you're stupid. Yeah, it may mean you are lazy and don't want to acquire said knowledge.

Anyone who doesn't have A CLUE should work the manual. Multiple times even. PB's spent a whole deal of effort just to make this possible. Yes it requires that you already have knowledge of RC stuff, like channels, pitch, throttle, etc.

I hope I put your mind to rest. If you still don't get it I'll come back with a car analogy, seems you are emphatic to cars

Peace!

Devo 10 + 4in1
~~Spektrum Dx9~~
FrSky Taranis + TBS Crossfire

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vlad_vy
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13 Dec 2012 04:15 - 13 Dec 2012 04:16 #3969 by vlad_vy

Replied by vlad_vy on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

I think we still neeed Max/Min (or Limit Adjust H/L) "0-150%" along with Travel Adjust H/L "0-150%".

When multiple channel mixing is used, the resultant servo movement angle may become to large, and an unreasonable force be applied to the linkages. If limit values are set, it is possible to limit the maximum movement of the servos, regardless of programmable mixing, etc.

Last edit: 13 Dec 2012 04:16 by vlad_vy.

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PhracturedBlue
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13 Dec 2012 04:22 #3970 by PhracturedBlue

Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

a) Please keep a civil tone here. I wrote Deviation with a specific set of goals in mind, and am happy with how it has turned out. I understand that it is not for everyone, and am happy that suvsuv has developed something with wider appeal. If you wish to continue this discussion, please do it in a new thread, and be civil.

b) I will simply add a neg-scale value and change the labels. It seems that will satisfy everyone who has spoken up.

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rbe2012
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So much to do, so little time...

13 Dec 2012 10:49 #3984 by rbe2012

Replied by rbe2012 on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

Just a thought - I hurry through the thread and may have missed something:
For my personal use I really would like to have independent "mix/max servo way values" which should not be affected with any mixing the tx could do. Or in other words: there is a physical limit for each servo, given by its gear or by design of heli/plane where further movement would hurt.
I would set these values initially with a unlimited mixing amd maximal scaling and could read the min/max values a servo should travel to from the monitoring page. This will be values which are absolute limits to everything I do with the mixers.
When I have set these values I can go on and examine the servo's zero point. When this is done, I go further to the mixing.
If I come to the point where I cann not use the full stick ranges then this is a sing that something with my mixing may be wrong - I would not try to define new limit points becauuse the hardware did not change, so why?
I come from simple Walkera tx to Devo8 too deViation and I had to learn hard what I can do with the mixers - they are quite powerful, but not really easy to understand. So it may be very easy to accidentially set mixing values which are not good for flying, as states in other posts.
Log story short:
I would prefer three steps:
1) set min/max SERVO travel ways (pos/neg travel limits) [defined by the hardware]
2) set zero servo value (subtrim) [also given by hardware]
3) do whatever I like with mixers as complex as I want it to without risking my servos/heli/plane [this is where I have freedom]

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NewJocker
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13 Dec 2012 12:54 #3985 by NewJocker

Replied by NewJocker on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

I would prefer three steps:
1) set min/max SERVO travel ways (pos/neg travel limits) [defined by the hardware]
2) set zero servo value (subtrim) [also given by hardware]
3) do whatever I like with mixers as complex as I want it to without risking my servos/heli/plane [this is where I have freedom]

I agree with that

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Hexperience
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13 Dec 2012 20:35 #3990 by Hexperience

Replied by Hexperience on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

Here's what Capt. Picard has to say about setting travel adjust...

There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.

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PhracturedBlue
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15 Dec 2012 16:50 - 15 Dec 2012 19:03 #4018 by PhracturedBlue

Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

Here's a build implementing negative servo-scale adjustment:
www.deviationtx.com/forum/7-development/...pre-v2-1-builds#4017

By default positive and negative are the same. Moving the pos scalar will move the neg-scalar as well.. If you change neg to be different than pos, it will disassociate the values and they can then be set independently.

Last edit: 15 Dec 2012 19:03 by FDR.

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Thomas.Heiss
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13 Sep 2016 06:24 - 13 Sep 2016 07:24 #53832 by Thomas.Heiss

Replied by Thomas.Heiss on topic Channel Scale+- / absolute servo travel (min/max)

Thank you to all developers and community.

This is such a great project and I love this firmware to support the Devo10 and being able to replace the Spektrum DX8G1 Airware.

Min/Max is equivalent to Spektrum servo absolute (abs.) travel adjustment.
Scale +- = Spektrum servo travel adjust

If you check out DX18, DX10T and DX9.. Spektrum also added the "servo absolute (abs.) travel adjustment" feature in later (2nd) Airware firmware.
Lower entry Airware transmitters like DX6G2/G3, DX6e, DX7G2 do not support abs. travel. They removed the Airware menu/screen while importing (model SPM) still supports those model settings.
Even the new DX8G2 misses absolute travel adjustment in their manual but the SpektrumRC transmitter comparison PDF chart marks this feature as supported. So maybe, maybe not

I therefore rate min/max = servo absolute travel adjustment as a VERY HOT feature that is supported by this very powerful Deviation firmware.
Full functionality whereas other vendors just limit their firmware or miss the more advanced features.

For Graupner MX series e.g. you would have to set abs. servo travel for entry transmitters in their special telemetry receivers screen/menu as it is not yet supported in servo settings).
Other vendors including older Spektrum DX8G1/DX7s/DX6i did not even add this feature in their entry series.

Example with glider:
I could already make use of min/max servo limits when using aileron spoiler (crow) brakes on a glider.
If you push the spoiler (mixer 50% up to 100%) on the throttle stick and you maybe also have to add AIL stick the stick input and mixer overshoots the channel 100% value.
This made the servo push rod go crazy and block on the wing.
So being able to limit <150% absolute servo travel values helps from time to time.

Thanks again to PhracturedBlue and all devs for developing and improving the powerful Deviation firmware and adding all these very nice features, most times only to be found in pricy high-end transmitters. It really is a pleasure to use it.
Your ongoing support and public open minded discussions surely helped to push the project to the point where it is now.

Kind regards from Germany

Thomas

Last edit: 13 Sep 2016 07:24 by Thomas.Heiss.

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Fernandez
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13 Sep 2016 14:48 - 13 Sep 2016 14:49 #53838 by Fernandez

Replied by Fernandez on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

Why we still use percentages in Deviation and not display and use absolute values in ms. with the defaults setting 1000min - 1500center - 2000max

Fi if we want to endpoints up and down or change the midpoint we just display the new absolute midpoint endpoint value, that will remove all confusion.
Still the max ranges etc may vary per protocol, but at least deviation than show immediately correct nr at tx.

Last edit: 13 Sep 2016 14:49 by Fernandez.

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mwm
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14 Sep 2016 13:41 - 14 Sep 2016 13:45 #53857 by mwm

Replied by mwm on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

We use percentage because that's what almost all aircraft manuals, users, etc. talk about. The only RC things talking about pulse width are the DIY drone flight controllers and some high end servo testers. Also, mixers make a lot more sense in terms of percentages rather than µs. Adding 50% and 25% is obviously 75%, but 1500 + 1250 isn't 2775. And everyone should have learned how to multiply percentages in grade school, and unit-aware calculators can deal with it. But µs², um, isn't useful here.

That said, a per-model option to display channel outputs in µs instead of % is probably reasonable. If you want to write it and submit a pull request on github, I'd certainly be willing to merge it if nobody finds code issues.

Do not ask me questions via PM. Ask in the forums, where I'll answer if I can.

My remotely piloted vehicle ("drone") is a yacht.

Last edit: 14 Sep 2016 13:45 by mwm.

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Thomas.Heiss
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14 Sep 2016 15:02 - 14 Sep 2016 15:46 #53861 by Thomas.Heiss

Replied by Thomas.Heiss on topic Channel Scale.... and Travel Adjust

Spektrum DX18/DX9 seems to have a menu showing µs for setting "absolute travel adjustment" (see manual).

Personally I don't care on absolute what you guys are going to show on screen.
You have to set abs. by testing it out (servo movement / bindings) anyways...and even 130-140% could already create a binding....so if it is either % or µs...I see no benefit.

For normal servo travel adjust:
Please stick to %, as this clearly shows what is going on

100%=~normal
75-80% reduced = very clear / intuitive
e.g >100% travel:
- for CCPM120 cyclic servos to create unique travel across all three cyclics on min/max collective
- or different AIL travel up/down for 2x AIL wingtype and making use of subtrim (subtrim most times requires +-100% adjustments)

Last edit: 14 Sep 2016 15:46 by Thomas.Heiss.

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