Welcomed feeback, I hope so. An outsider lookin in

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04 Jul 2013 16:47 #11893 by ave1
I'd like to see someone appointed who will field our questions (operational questions), as we learn. So, we don't write with questions most of you find elementary. Have patience, please.

You guys are brilliant (I am not), just an average business guy, somewhat slow comparatively speaking, who runs two business just to keep the bills paid. YOU all very dedicated creating the most powerful RC TX (next to the military's). Yet, we who just almost learned a DX8, sometimes just want to fly (because all of our “time” is at a premium) our models with one TX. Next, we get an intro to the name ER9x and the deviation complex mixer. I want to know the complex mixer. Easy for most here perhaps but, it is not easy (for all of us!) Sure, guilty of not reading. But, reading does not answer all questions.

I'll get there. But I wish I could go to someone with my questions you'll probably deem as .....................unnecessary. I could have used other words above. This is suppose to be fun and I just ask to learn.

Please note: There is no flying field where Ill find you to ask these questions in person so, how else can I get answers? Reading does not always do the trick.


There are lots of smarter people here.

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04 Jul 2013 17:10 #11894 by Hexperience
Replied by Hexperience on topic Welcomed feeback, I hope so. An outsider lookin in
Firstly, did you ask a question and get a rude answer? If you do, ignore it, most people here are very willing to help.

The main problem is that this forum is really not as active as it seems. I think there are only a few people that are answering questions, and (in my case at least) I don't always have time (important thing time...(see post above)) to respond.

Long story short, post your question... or are you looking for a primer "how to use the mixer" type of article?

I did a bit of how to on using the mixer here:
www.deviationtx.com/forum/how-to/1226-ho...s-on-custom-firmware

It should give you an idea of the logic behind the mixer.

Sorry though... you do have to read it... ;)

There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.

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04 Jul 2013 18:47 - 05 Jul 2013 09:37 #11901 by FDR
If I got it right, do you want to meet somebody, who would explain you the complex mixer?

While I would really enjoy to visit the States just for that, I can't afford the plane... ;)

But seriously, the mixer is not that complex!
Think about it as a simple calculation: the pages are the operands, the "mux" is the operator (actually I named that in the hungarian translation), and the result will go out to the actual channel.
There are some nuances of course, as the operands can be conditional depending on the switch, and they can be scaled and offset...
Last edit: 05 Jul 2013 09:37 by FDR. Reason: typo

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04 Jul 2013 23:01 #11916 by ave1
NO, no one is rude, just very busy. Focused. I got that. But, I also don't want to intrude and ask mundane questions.

I just received info from a group member (which I really do and did appreciate) the DR/Expo is nothing even remotely similar to the settings of a DX8, the only real TX I know. (kinda Know, at least).

In that one sentence (his reply) I now know what I was trying to accomplish was all wrong and my seeking 0 for EXPO and 100 for DR's were not the ticket.. I must have spent a day or more trying to tell the difference in my heli and could not. :) And gain for gyro? I'm still lost with that one (in the complex mixer) for a model who requires PPM and the complex mixer.

Ya know, if I use a BeastX and the simple mixer, I have no issues and understand the articles within. If I understand correctly, it's Okay to use the standard and simple mixer in that case as the controller (beastX) is doing the mixing.

I love this software. I want to know it all. I can and do spend hours trying to understand the conversations within the forum. I want to run and can barely walk, is my problem.

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05 Jul 2013 07:40 #11933 by myxiplx
Complex mixers are tricky to get your head around, but once you understand how they work the basic idea is actually quite simple.

Here are the basics:
  • You can have any number of mixers, which are shown as 'pages' in the GUI.
  • Mixers are processed in order, starting at number 1 and working through to the last.
  • Each mixer can optionally be assigned a switch. If the switch is off, that mixer is ignored completely and the program skips to the next one.
  • Each mixer can be used to modify the results of earlier mixers, I think of this as the action of the mixer. This is set via the MUX entry and you can do things like replace all previous values, add these results to the previous ones, etc...
  • Finally, each mixer is a standard control curve. You can choose any input to act as the source, and specify any type of curve and scale.

So to give an example, I created a mixer for my rudder control to help me practice piros, it lets me flick a switch and use the AUX4 dial on my Devo 10 to start the helicopter spinning at a constant rate. To do this I want to have my rudder managed by the stick, and have the AUX4 dial add to that input if I flick my switch to on.

To do this, I need to create a complex mixer consisting of two parts.

On the first page I set my basic rudder control:
  • Switch: none
  • MUX: Replace
  • Src: RUD
  • Curve: Expo
  • Scale: 70

And on the second page, I configure it to add AUX4 if I flick a switch:
  • Switch: MIX2
  • MUX: Add
  • Src: !AUX4
  • Curve: 1-to-1
  • Scale: 50

Feel free to ask if you have any questions, I'm fairly new to Devolution, but work in IT so I'm used to explaining how things work.

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05 Jul 2013 09:30 #11936 by RandMental
If I can contribute where I see the most confusion - the mixers as PB said are effectively just a series of arithmetic equations between a source and the selected output channel. Most users will understand this with the manual and a bit of reading.

The confusion comes in with the understanding of what some entities, when should they be used and what are their benefits, e.g.

Virtual Channels - benefit? when and how to use, e.g. why not just add more mixer pages?
Cyclic 1/2/3 - purpose, when and how to use, etc.

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05 Jul 2013 11:14 #11937 by myxiplx
Actually, I think you'll find confusion happens as soon as you start using any terms such as operator, operand, hungarian notation or arithmetic equation.

To a programmer or math geek, this kind of stuff is second nature, but for the vast majority of people they've either never used terms like this, or haven't come across them since leaving school, and that may be 30 or 40 years ago.

I used to be quite good at translating geek to plain english, but even though I tried to avoid any complex terms in my reply, when I read it back it's still not quite as clear as I'd like. Ave, if you have any questions, feel free to ask, we'll do our best to explain.

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05 Jul 2013 11:45 #11938 by FDR
Probably we should start to explain from the other side: what an ordinary tx does to achieve things?

For example there is the question of throttle and pitch curves:
A beginner won't find them in the advanced gui.
You can say they can be easily implemented by a complex mixer, but of course he won't know how, because to implement those features he had to know how do they work, and he probably doesn't know that...

So first we should explain them how things work, and not about the gui itself, for example (assuming he knows about throttle and pitch in general):
The heli's receiver awaits the throttle and pitch values as two separate channel values.
However we control both values with the throttle stick only, because there is no separate control for the pitch.
But then how can we create two different values, he could ask? Because there are separate curves (called the throttle curves and pitch curves), both depending on the throttle stick as input, but since they have different characteristics (called a curve or the transer function), which make the two output different.
Furthermore, these curves/functions might depend on the flight mode (which is selected with a switch), so you usually can have as many throttle and picth curves as many flight mode you have.
Since the flight mode switch determines which curve is in use, you can switch the function of the throttle stick from controlling the throttle value (or both the throttle and pitch) to control only the pitch while the throttle has a fixed (or at least almost fixed) value.


Looks like my attempt turned into just as hard to understand... ;)

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05 Jul 2013 12:06 - 05 Jul 2013 12:06 #11939 by sbstnp
Some time ago I started a long-ish writeup with examples and I kind of abandoned it at a time when I was busy. Posts like this make me wanna go back and finish what I started.

I intended to have something in PDF, so it can be printed and read outside when at the field.

Table of contents was something like this initially:
1. RC notions and terms (generic)
2. Know your transmitter (generic)
3. Protocols and channels (both generic and Deviation specific)
4. Examples (Deviation specific, complex mixer only):
a. Basic 4 channel plane
b. Basic 4 channel heli
c. Complex plane
d. Glider
e. CP heli

If I gather enough interest with this post, I'll go back and finish what I started. Probably post each "chapter" for review, corrections and additions.

Let me know what you think.

Devo 10 + 4in1
Spektrum Dx9
FrSky Taranis + TBS Crossfire
Last edit: 05 Jul 2013 12:06 by sbstnp.

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05 Jul 2013 12:18 #11940 by rbe2012
This is a really good idea. We have so much users asking almost the same questions that having the work with making such a description once will be less than to answer an endless amount of similar questions. The main disadvantage may be that the work will be done by only a few people while potentially more people are willing to answer a single question.
But if you need me, I will help. Let me tell you in advance that I am not a native English speaker (yes, you might have heard that before from me...) and when I have read what myxiplx has written I thought: wow, clear to the point; something I will never reach...
sbstnp, if you find the time to go on and perhaps with support of myxiplx I am sure the result will be a huge help for newcomer to rc hobby and to deviation.
Again: I will help if I can (and someone tells me what to do).

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05 Jul 2013 12:37 - 05 Jul 2013 12:39 #11941 by RandMental

myxiplx wrote: Actually, I think you'll find confusion happens as soon as you start using any terms such as operator, operand, hungarian notation or arithmetic equation.


You are right, my (engineering) background probably have me jump to an unrealistic conclusion that the mixer concepts/Arithmetic is easy to understand.

sbstnp - very good idea, and I guess we shall all jump in and help, but such information do exist. When I started from zero 18 months ago with a shiny new V450 in front of me, I had no clue what anything in the manual meant, and soon realised that 90% of the posts on RC groups, Helifrek etc, are subject nonsense by people with probably good intentions, but knowing even less than I did. So for me it was back to basics and engineering concepts to figure out swash plates, mechanical setup. etc.

I have since complied an extensive library of free and purchased ebooks that explain these (RC heli) concepts that we can adopt and if copyright allows, adapt for the benefit of Deviation users.
Last edit: 05 Jul 2013 12:39 by RandMental.

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05 Jul 2013 12:43 #11942 by FDR
Yes, but most people don't like to read long texts, because that is boring...

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05 Jul 2013 13:02 - 05 Jul 2013 13:03 #11945 by RandMental

FDR wrote: Yes, but most people don't like to read long texts, because that is boring...


No pain, no gain :), but I guess you are right, now a days nobody really reads manuals and then only if Google is down.

What I suggest is to lessen the work and pull from existing information the minimum we require to assist sbstnp to fill his proposed chapters.
Last edit: 05 Jul 2013 13:03 by RandMental.

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05 Jul 2013 13:28 #11947 by myxiplx
This is drifting off-topic a little now, but I would really like to see the manual put online in a wiki format. I'd be happy to put some time into helping out with documentation, I know there's been some work in this area already but the last time I looked I couldn't work out how to access or edit the drafts. If we could put a wiki together, that would be a great place for drafting a manual, and an easy way for several people to work on it together.

Also, as you say, no matter how good the documentation, people will always ask questions, and that's not necessarily a bad thing as it helps build the community.

If we had an online wiki, the other advantage is that it would give us something we can easily link to when answering questions for people. As we've found here, sometimes you need a lot of background and it makes answers complicated. A wiki where you can split information into small easily readable chunks could make it much more accessible.

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05 Jul 2013 14:12 #11950 by ave1
The best and brightest of you guys here are momentarily off focus/subject; the continued design of the best firmware/TX. Most here exceed the mental capabilities of many who work for DOD, Sandia Labs. And, while I can't help, I certainly don't wish to hurt. Case in point the above plus, RBE just wrote a small dissertation, must have taken him hours, time he did not have (I'm certain) in an effort to help me.. Of course, I thank him (and you all) for help.

The statement (s) people will always ask questions" and "some do not like to read" and add, "we like immediate gratification" and, "we don't want to bug or slow you, either".

To set up a beastX, I watch a video. To set the end points of a Castle ESC, auto rotate and other, I watch a video. Consider a Deviation video, maybe more than one. FBL Heli, FB heli, Glider, Plane. Mixers. Some or, all? I want to (need to) watch someone set up a heli, step by step, using the advanced set up. We can pause and immolate what you do. Hear your words and watch over and over again until "the elevator hits the top floor".

It will get us started and we can immediately test and any issues will be easily identified. I believe we could leave you alone for the most part and let you continue writing the program.

I feel in my "gut" deviation's power. Now to connect the dots.

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05 Jul 2013 18:16 #11960 by misterpepper
Replied by misterpepper on topic Welcomed feeback, I hope so. An outsider lookin in
I think an "idiot's guide" would be a welcome addition. I think a lot of Devention users are coming from the toy RC world, with zero programmable transmitter experience. Some simple examples/graphs would do wonders for people struggling to understand just the basics like scale vs. min/max. I know the information exists in the forums, but sometimes it is few and far between, and often us newbies lack the vocabulary to even search for it.

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05 Jul 2013 18:39 #11962 by spartacus
IDIOTS guide is a bit raw, i have been flying fixed wing for 35 years and 8 years as an instructor never in all those years i have classed anyone who wanted to ask questions about rc as an idiot because they want the know the inside of a tx, rx, servo,
or lipo i can go on and on.
I decided to buy a quad with Devo 8 wow this is new too me, i would like to come on to a DEVO FORUM AND HAVE SOME NICE FEEDBACK BUT ALL I SEE IS IRATE PEOPLE WHO CANT BE A.S.D WITH NOOBES LIKE ME.

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05 Jul 2013 18:49 #11964 by myxiplx
Hey, chill. Idiots guide isn't an offensive term, there is a very well known set of training manuals called idiots guide. The main premise is to explain complex stuff is simple everyday language. I'd love an idiots guide, they're a great way to pick things up.

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05 Jul 2013 18:55 - 05 Jul 2013 19:35 #11965 by spartacus
Last edit: 05 Jul 2013 19:35 by spartacus.

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05 Jul 2013 18:59 - 05 Jul 2013 19:34 #11966 by spartacus
wrong info
Last edit: 05 Jul 2013 19:34 by spartacus. Reason: wrong info

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