All models uncontrollable spinning

Ok give it to me straight.
I'm getting blind and dumber the more possibilities I explore. In short,
I needs help choosing a heli.
The holy grail would be from
250 to 450 6ch
Complete package or kit with a receiver 6 or 8 channel
Easy to program gyro
RTF, BNF. ARF or at least a assembled frame and rotor head.
With or with out fly bar.
Belt drive.
Easily binds to a Walkera 8s with deviation 4.1
Price Free to $450.
Not a toy.
New
A US vendor would be nice.
Did I leave anything out?

my profile “An ignorant person is like a walking grave on Earth.”
— Ibn al-Qayim
[]

What's an "easy to program gyro"? Most of the ones I've dealt with just had a channel for gain adjustment, and maybe a way to switch between heading hold and rate modes.

Given your requirements, I'd get the Blade 300 CFX BNF Basic. I'm more of a scale fan, which would be the Apache, but the direct drive tail puts us both off that.

CopterX 450 flybarless ARTF kit for $150 (plus shipping)? Never had one but always used to hear good things about them (CopterX)

Older Skyartec Wasp , $155 + shipping, 250-size I believe?

ehirobo looks like they are dumping lots of the heli stuff (everyone wants quads at the moment it seems), probably the same elsewhere, so you trawl through and you might find a good deal. The Walkera V450D03 had a really good price but is sold out. Master CP also good price, it's a direct-dive and brushed but supposedly pretty decent.

Hmm, can only relay the processes I have been through

I went with a copterx 250 running a Tarot ZYX S2 (using an orange RX) to replace a flybarred clone250 I bought second hand that turned out to be a complete basket case which would cost more than a shiny new kit costs

If bought as a RTF, it will STILL need stripping down and rebuilding with love, care and thread lock and grease
If going with a flybarless controller it will need a fair bit of reading up and tweaking and testing

I went with a kit form flybarless kit, no electrics included for about 25 pounds, intention being to put all the electronics from the first one into a new fresh frame along with a flybarless controller - (Tarot ZYX S2) these clone kits are so cheap it works out cheaper then replacing the parts that were worn or tired..or should do assuming the parts they send are not unusable from the start

In the box the frame halves and bearing blocks etc are already nipped together tail and head already built
Some parts were thread locked, a lot of important ones were not, not that it mattered as each and every part was stripped, checked, cleaned and rebuilt
Not all parts were good from the box and needed replacing
(feathering shaft, main shaft , tail gear and don't even think about running the belt it comes with unless you have bulk bought tailbooms)
Luckily the company I bought from were very good and sent replacement parts FOC when I photo'd the bad ones

I currently have it flying and tweaked well enough for my current level of flying but only after a few crashes during the learning curve
It's quite VERY fiddly to work on
Had a tail servo go potty mid flight, which caused damage
Had the elevator servo strip mid flight...causing another major rebuild (though more than likely weakened from earlier crashes) so treated it to a set of metal geared digital servo's all round and fresh moving parts for those that got bent/damaged

I have possibly sunk enough to have bought a genuine Align250, but it has taught me a LOT more than going that route initially would have

I fancied a 450, as it should be easier to work on (and less chance of snapping the worlds smallest heads off those wee Chinese screws) as well as being more stable and less reactive

I went with a HK450 pro, bought second hand, hardware wise it MUCH nicer to work on and easier to see what you are doing because of the larger scale
I bought a flybarless head for it (CopterX) and went with a cheap flybarless controller - K Bar Mini (V Bar clone)
Again another steep learning curve with getting the FC setup for the mechanics and getting the pitches right for what the controller deems acceptible

I had a major malfunction on its maiden flight, which has resulted in a full electronics and mechanical rebuild
(New ESC/BEC, digital servo's all round and another VBar Mini) as well as many mechanical parts needed replacing including going to a torque tube tail rather than belt

I am at the point where I /think/ I have got it all setup and ready for a maiden flight with the new parts, but we have crap weather and there's no way I'll be flying indoors with the 450 ...especially after what it did on its maiden voyage
(looked at the flight log and suspect it was a BEC that couldn't provide enough juice to the digital servo's and the flight controller.. possibly along with some signs of static discharge from the belt drive tail causing mayhem as well as vibration levels)

I have only roughly set the gains/gyro's at suggested levels...and they WILL need further tweaking for sure- just like the Tarot ZYX did on the 250...I don't think there is such a thing as a fit and forget Gyro for flybarless, they need tuning otherwise it can shake itself to bits (been there , snapped a tail boom during flight whilst still learning the tweaking process it got so violent before I could get back on the ground)

I was lucky enough to have persuaded the mrs to video the maiden hovers of both the heli's
I'm glad the mrs heeded my warning and didn't get too close for the 450

250 - still needs tweaking but no disasters


450 complete and epic disaster


I will video the 450 as soon as this wet n windy stuff goes away and there's some daylight

getting your hands dirty and doing much reading up is the method I chose, I suppose you could get one built and tested and tweaked by someone else
But the FC's have so many adjustments that knowing how you want the heli to feel or react is possibly a part of it as well

These kits and parts are cheap enough now that even a major crash is not massively expensive, so inexpensive that I do wonder if they are all being discontinued and its at the bottom of the bell curve whilst there is overstock

Hopefully I wont be crashing as much and won't NEED to be buying as many parts soon

250 parts are not as common/available, 450's seem to have more parts out there and still readily available
250's are harder to work on and a much twitchier heli
Neither are that suitable for indoor flying (UK home sized spaces anyway)

Regards
Rob

Well that escalated quickly
I've had numerous random control failures, including one where the ESC wouldn't go below about 50%, had to resort to throwing a towel into the rotor to kill it

450s? What luxury! I mostly fly 100-200 size micros. I have heard it recommended that going from 450 up to 500 makes a huge difference in how hard the thing is to work on.

Get a Forza 450 and never look back...easy to build small number of moving parts and takes a crash very well...large main and tail shafts never bend and the belt drive is pure silk smooth...

WOW you guys are a huge help. Once again thanks MWM and Robocog for your input. I will program your input to my 8s iif I ever figure out how
I'm looking at copterX on the recommended site and the deals are awesome. I too get the feeling that Quads are ruling the day but flying something like a heli that should not fly by the laws of god and physics is a challenge.
I've pretty much narrowed it down to a Trex or Copter X in the 450 size. I have a huge soccer field nearby and a couple acres of sand to lose one in so off I (we) go..................

Have you actually ever flown a collective pitch heli? If not, I'd really suggest getting a micro like the Walkera Super CP, micros can generally take a lickin' and keep on kickin'! With a large heli, you can virtually guarantee each crash will result in something else needing replacing. So I recommend learning the ropes on a micro then going big; the micro CPs can actually handle a decent bit of wind too!

I wish they had the micros and cheap programmable TXs when I was learning CP, or even the 450 clones! I started a little bit before the clone glut.

Can only echo the sage advice above
If first CP heli...save the 250 450 size for much later, instead lots of sim time and/or a micro will be a LOT less expensive/frustrating

Even a slightly heavy landing does the tail booms in on 250 size, a mere clip of tail on a tuft of grass or rotor ding involves strip / find broken or bent bits, order, wait , rebuild, repeat...and this does not include destroying parts because wee small screw heads snap off trying to remove them
(tip, soldering iron applied to head does help removal...but does not guarantee it will not shear clean off flush ruining the part it originally held on)

I have an MCPX and HCP80 V2, both are excelent and flown with a deviated 7e

It's a tossup between them, both are very robust and very capable and react pretty fast
No small screws to lose/break, can fly indoors after much outside practice

If your local shop does parts for ether of these then that's a logical one to get

Not that you will need lots of parts as they are super robust as I have proven
(feathering shafts, main gears, spare swash and a big bag of the swash inks and fit a slightly longer solid tailboom when the stock one snaps...oh and when learning - landing gear on the MCPX..or just get the Airtime indestructible ones)

The HCP80 V2 does feature a switchable 6 axis gyro that will make it too easy and boring...more like a mega stable fixed pitch, flick the switch to 3 axis and it's back to 3d mayhem

It's taken me a long while to get it to the point I don't /just/ crash on a CP

If the 250 or 450 was the first CP I would have given up or be in massive debt/bankrupt myself long before I had 'got it' flying

The bigger they and more mass and greater the head speed the more likely they explode/completely destroy themselves on even the slightest misshap

Both MCPX and HCP80 have been flown at full headspeed inverted into immovable objects, pick them up, pop them back on their skids and they are off again (may shake a little if the main gear spins on the shaft or if the feathering shaft bends, but they are pretty much indestructible due to low mass)
Just carry spare main gears and swash links, they do have a habit of pinging off into the scenery never to be found again...and I guess one of the main reasons they don't do more damage on impacts...sacrificial cheap parts...good design IMHO

Regards
Rob

I have flown a cp heli.A walkera V120D01s V2 Two decent hovers then stripped out the tail gears and bam into the wall. I bought a slipper clutch it sits on the repair bench because the parts are just to tiny for my clumsy fingers. I'm not reticent to try a 450 size. The learning curve is expected and parts replacement is affordable. It appears I'll be going with a Trex clone so recommendations are welcome ( don't want to afford the huge price tag Trex brings I'd rather side my house.
I looked at CopterX but they seem to have huge quality issues(?)
Another green newb question: Most of the ARF kits do not mention which receiver to install. Am I confused about the nomenclature? If not Please recommend a receiver that's compatible with a deviated 8s without TX mods.
I'm still looking at Gartt 450s' but again which receiver? Also I'm reading that a heli with a flybar is easier to program than a FBL model.
I hope I'm not frustrating the kind folks who are helping me along, I'm from Tennessee by way of Missouri and come from a long line of mules.

Flybar helis have tons of moving parts in the head that have to be lined up properly and are a pain in the but and just a simple tip over and its back to setting it all up again...stick with flybarless much less moving parts and also CopterX used to be (don't know about now) hard to find parts here in the states...And i would stay away from Walkera they use cheap plastic that break/strips very easily as well as soft metal in there shafts that bend if you sneeze on them...

Orange RX's will bind to the non hardware modded but Deviated Devo and fly them
(DSM2 DSMX protocols)
6 ch is enough
Personally I run the orange (R615x) RX's on the quad and both of the bigger helis that need a reperate RX
They /seem/ to work fine

I believe the newer Orange RX's may have telemetry built in?
Not sure if Deviation supports this yet?

Not tried fly bar on the 250 or 450, in fact the only flybar heli I own is a V911 and its flybar is a 45 degree one not 90 degree so doesn't count

Both the 450 and 250's originally had flybars, but I did not use them so I have never tried them in that mode
(replaced before even attempting due to slop/bent bits/wanting to use a flight controllers features)

Flaybarred the mixing will be done on the TX, never tried it but would imagine there's still a fair bit of mechanical and radio tweaking to get it to work nicely
Flybarless with flight controller, all the mixing is done on the flight controller, lots of setting up tinkering and tweaking, lots of help files out there and a good mannered community. More stable...maybe?
Can get FC's with rescue modes if pockets are deep enough

Flybarred, lots of moving parts that will get sloppy with time... if they last that long- more parts to buy and setup properly when they get bent in a crash
Flybarless - fewer parts mechanically to look after/setup or replace, more options for tweaking the 'feel' via the PC

I foresaw I would be replacing parts frequently and long before they had a chance to get sloppy and enjoy plugging stuff into the PC and tinkering so flybarless was the path I chose

CopterX stuff is OK, you do have to check stuff, but I guess HK stuff and Gartt and most of the clones are possibly all banged out of the same factories and all will have typical quality control systems?

I have a mix of both genuine and clone parts on both heli's
CopterX featering shafts and main shafts 'seem' to be softer than the Align ones
Is this a BAD thing?
Not sure... the CopterX ones do seem to bend more for the similar crashes/blade strikes I have had
But a crash that bends the shaft a lot or a little still needs a replacement shaft, having it obviously bent saves any doubt it goosed

Had an Align feathering shaft that sheared clean where the threads stop internally upon a heavy blade strike to the ground causing the one blade to be ejected some fair distance...I would have preferred it to have just simply (or complexly) bent, I never did find the washer and bearing that went flying off...easier to stuff into a bin bag if the unit is kept as a single piece and less embarrassing crawling a field on your knees looking for parts

Belt drive tail is possibly more beginner friendly, I believe the TT tails have a habit of stripping gears at the merest hint of grass brushing the tail blades, I can testify that belt will act like a strimmer to a certain extent and clear its own path - messy and can bend the shaft
Landing with the tail clear of the ground is not always possible on the fields I play on (or my own back garden)

Regards
Rob

As said above, RX can be anything DSM2 or DSMX.

Again as stated above, flybars are a pain in the aR$3. I haven't tried a non-micro flybarless to set up the flight controller, I'm sure they could also be a pain with settings, but much less complicated mechanically.
Pretty sure most cheap quad flight controllers (multiwii, cc3d, naze32...) can do flybarless nowadays, and they'd have auto-level (aka. "oh sh!#") modes you could quickly engage, just don't know how easy they are to set up or whether all of the kinks are ironed out yet.

"Without Tx mods" means you want a DSMx receiver. The other protocol options are either obsolete or have big, heavy overpriced receivers. DSM2 is older, less reliable and of questionable legality in some areas. Spektrum owns the protocol and charges for a license for protocol info. OrangeRx, LemonRx and deviation are unlicensed versions of it, and they have all gotten better in the last year or two. But some oddities in the protocol sometimes cause the unlicensed versions to work better when using DSM2 even if both ends support DSMx. Also, the only testing of the unlicensed products with each other is by the deviation team in the nightly builds.

OrangeRx telemetry works on deviation, but they don't have Rx battery telemetry. The older versions have been widely reported as having reliability and QC issues. QC had been much better after the first generation of them, and reliability has improved every generation. If you're going with FBL, you'll either need a flight controller or an Rx that does the FBL mixing. I'm not sure that OrangeRx makes the latter. If your getting a flight controller, check to see if it can do either SBUS or (C)PPM, and if so get an Rx that does that to simplify the build. If it does both, go with SBUS.

Well after much indecision I have decide to purchase a CopterX 450Pro belt drive FBL arf. The consensus appears to be installing a Orangerx receiver. I've been looking on the EHirobo site but they have gotten some negative reviews on shipping and customer service as well as large shipping costs..I do know I'll want a US . company with customer support ,suggestions please. Also has anyone purchased from KY-model.com.

You might checl out wowhobbies they used to carry Copterx

Ordered direct from ehirobo.com for the 250
They were great when I needed replacement parts when the ones in the box were not suitable
(no extra cost,no hassle, always friendly etc)

I have ordered loads from there to keep the 250 and bought the copterX FBL head for the 450 and can recommend them without hesitation, they seem to be pretty on the ball

I had less luck with HobbyKing TBH, but sometimes ehirobo don't have the parts and I have to swallow HK's shipping or take an ebay gamble

Its a good job these helis are like Lego...

Regards
Rob

Too V or not 2v, Is that a question?
I'm zooming in on a CopterX 450pro fbl artf w/ lemon rx v2. I have noticed that the electronics packages included in the CopterX helis seem to be the same. Is there a significant difference?
Regarding the lemon rx v2 is that recommended or is there a Walkera rx that would be a better choice?
Ehirobo is the place to go almost all the sellers appear to be clones of them and the positive review from the forum soothed my trepiidation. They currently have this package on sale: www.ehirobo.com/copterx-cx-450pro-v4-fly...uper-combo-artf.html

PS: Please forgive the large text, its easier for me to read/type [/color]