Deviation - Engaging the traditional RC hobbyists

This post was prompted by 2 posts: PB’s observation about the languages having active support on Deviation. www.deviationtx.com/forum/translations/2...coming-release#17482 and the post www.deviationtx.com/forum/how-to/2516-wa...-align-3gx-mrs#17554 .

To me it leads us to a single strategic question to the Deviation developers and Development supporters : what future do we want for Deviation?

It is clear the majority of discussions on the Deviation forum is around support for smaller "toy" RC models (i.e. the Hubsan and Vxxx ranges) rather than the larger professional heli’s and planes flown by serious hobbyists.

Deviation seems to gain new users mainly due to its capability to support multiple RF modules and multiple protocols -> it is convenient to use one TX, and the TX units included in those RTF (ready to Fly) packages are typically limited and low quality. This is of course its unique “selling point and a natural progression would hopefully lead them to become serious about the RC Hobby and move up to larger RC models - this is where I see the gap we face (see Crossing the Chasm: Marketing and Selling High-Tech Products to Mainstream Customers by Geoffrey A. Moore - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm )

Currently moving up to serious RC hobbyist means being advised by the old hands and experienced RC pilots to move up to a "professional and proven TX and RX device – Walkera/Deviation is just not known, nor trusted. (my own experience at our LHS and flying club). The reality is one gets very little assistance and support at the typical RC Club level when walking around using 1) unknown Walkera /Devention TX HW and, 2) some “unproven” home written software called Deviation which can affect the control of other pilots' planes.

I am personally at this cross point – with 9 x helis from aV911 to an Align TREX 700e and 3 recently acquired 1.5m wing planes – do I trust these models with Deviation? I only use Deviation for the smaller models and use a Futaba 14SG for the larger ones - but I hate the Futaba interface, especially after spending time with my Devo8s with Deviation.
The question for Deviation is how and what we need to learn from the open source RC environments if we want Deviation to get traction in formal hobby field and be considered by the serious hobbyist which fly models worth hundreds of US$.

Porting Deviation to the new FrSky Taranis HW will be one way to get the attention of the serious hobbyist, however it will be competing with the standard and well supported openTX environment. Scanning RC forums there are a few comparisons that puts even the current Taranis X9D with OpenTX above or in par with the well-received (mid-range) Futuba 14SG with its FASSTest 2.4GHz Technology. (This environment and their PC based Companion9X is a good example of the support requirements expected. We are not far behind and with a few changes to our Deviation Emulators we can have the same usability).

Back to the strategic question - unless we WANT to cross this chasm and move up the ladder providing a complete Deviation eco system such as openTX does, this unbelievable work called Deviation will stay at the toy level and us, moving to "serious RC hobbyist', will also have to move on. It will however require a change in focus from technology and feature add-on's to and eco system approach with some marketing elements added.

Just my view.

RandMental

I am in this exact position. I am in the market for a good transmitter that will allow me to begin competing in f3a competition sportsman class with .60 sized planes. The devo 8s looks pretty, and on paper the deviation firmware opens up many possibilities. But, for larger 'more serious' flyers, how does the devo 8s + deviation stack up against say a futaba 7c? The devo 8s is similalrly priced with the taranis and on paper the specs are similar, but can I trust for larger models e.g. warbirds? Perhaps someone with more experience and knowledge of deviation and devo radios can chime in

I have 100% trust in deviation in my devo12. I fly mainly helis and most are 500 and 600 sized. I fly mostly 3D aerobatic but I also have a 600 sized scale MD500-D. I came from the 2801pro tx, and I had 100% trust in that system. The only time a brown-out or lock-out type event occured was due to faulty rx units.

I have even converted a long time spectrum user to switch over to deviation with a Devo8. He flies large planes 60" wingspan is his smallest, and he also has a 700 and 800 sized helis that he flys regularly. He mostly uses the orange rx units you get for $11 at HK, and he has had no problems at all.

Now im looking for another Devo8s for another friend who only flys futaba. Not only is the touchscreen hardware an attraction but also the cross protocol, and flexible programing features that deviation offers.

After seeing that you can program flaps on a 82" wingspan Lancair, and dont need a seperate servo speed regulator has guys Jr12 radios somewhat envious.

Walkera takes alot of hits being called a "toy" company, but my 2801pro never had a problem while guys were sending their spectrum radios back to the factory. The hardware is solid. As a test subject, un paid spokes person, for deviation, I can say without a doubt, this is a solid hardware and software combo.

I wholeheartedly trust my 8s and 10 using both both up to a 60 size nitro plane. At the larger size I would say use a decent RX and/or with Satellite rx. Common sense, one would do this regardless of tx though. I will stick with Deviation no matter what, I just like it. Here in Auz, Walkera is even less known than back in South Africa.

That said, a huge consideration needs to be given to the direction the hardware manufacturers are going and how they encompass the open development on their hardware. FrSky is getting really serious providing a platform that favors open development and future transmitters after the Taranis will most certainly be awesome. Unfortunately where is Walkera going on the hardware side? certainly doesn't seem to be in favor of Deviation

stevecox wrote: FrSky is getting really serious providing a platform that favors open development and future transmitters after the Taranis will most certainly be awesome. Unfortunately where is Walkera going on the hardware side? certainly doesn't seem to be in favor of Deviation

Based on there history there will be lots of new Tx's coming from Walkera.

12 months ago I would have argued that Walkera is trying to move up to compete with the Aligns' of the world and we have hitched a ride on a well placed pony.

Unfortunately recent events show they are seriously moving into the high volume toy, smallish quadcopter and entry level FPV markets. I think they missed the plot with some of their larger and non FPV releases:

• The V500 was a total flop, yet they brought out the V18G01 Nitro, but with a Walkera made glow engine - I don't think they will have too many sales on that one.
• Support for an external Futaba compatible RX module for the small V12D02s. Frankly I don't see the typical Futaba owner flying a patched V120D02s. All I can think is that it a knee-jerk reaction trying to counter Align's move into the smaller heli's.

Anyway as such I am not expecting any serious development on the high level non-FPV TX side, especially on the Devo12 and perhaps even the Devo8. Somewhere on the forum it was said that Walkera knows and follows what Deviation - I would love to know how Deviation influence their thinking (I know it is presumptuous, but still).

Last point - the Taranis option is a great TX platform and we can add the same RF module support, it will be a winner (although I love my Devo8 touch screen). The Taranis feature list says it does have HW support for external RF modules, so perhaps we will find a way to add CYRF and A7105 modules and support their protocols. In the mean time I am on the waiting list for the Taranis.

SadSack wrote:

stevecox wrote: FrSky is getting really serious providing a platform that favors open development and future transmitters after the Taranis will most certainly be awesome. Unfortunately where is Walkera going on the hardware side? certainly doesn't seem to be in favor of Deviation

Based on there history there will be lots of new Tx's coming from Walkera.

This is exactly where I see the Walkera problem for Deviation - they are all over the place trying to chase the next great thing. Referring back to my opening post, what the serious hobbyist looks for a stability and a evolutionary growth path that does not require him to reinvest in a new end to end solution every 6-9 months.

thanks for the responses; sorry for hijacking the thread! Regarding the evolutionary growth path, to be honest that was one of th things that attracted me to the devo 8s vs the taranis; the fact of changing protocol to use a wide variety of (cheap) receivers. I am glad to know that people are using the devo 8s on larger planes; that inspires confidence; I see that the author/programmer does not believe that the software is there yet, perhaps he is just being modest, understandably so. However I have heard nothing but rave reviews on the net about deviation and to be honest if something DID go wrong, I feel that I would have no right whatsoever to blame the creator(s) of the deviation firmware.
The colour touchscreen on the devo 8s is a real attraction and imho the radio is prettier than the taranis...........
If the range is good, the connection to the plane solid, and the hardware is solid then why could something like a devo not compete with a futaba/jr/spektrum?

garethb wrote: ....If the range is good, the connection to the plane solid, and the hardware is solid then why could something like a devo not compete with a futaba/jr/spektrum?

I think you just summarised it well as quoted above "IF.....".

It takes time and commitment to build a sold reputation.

Randmetal thanks very much; I cant tell how glad you posted this you have cleared up a lot of things for me. Do you not feel that the numbers of people with solid reliability to report on devo+deviation is there yet? That's a pitty because I was really liking especially the devo 10; seems dirt cheap for a good radio. I understand now what you are saying; walkera are now in a similar position to where perhaps hitec was when they were new on the market; relatively unknown, cheaper with a loyal fan base. If they (walkera) had've engaged flyers like(myself?) more they would be a better known brand with more users etc?
Lastly; perhaps I could be so bold; from a person who is just looking to move on from a basic 4 channel fm radio to fly bigger models, would you recommend the devo 8s or devo 10?

Let's start with the easy questions, there is a article PB wrote www.deviationtx.com/articles/21-which-devo-tx-should-i-buy
which highlights the basic differences.

I have in fact a Devo10 in shipping, but have 2x Devo8s and 2x Devo7e - I will probably sell the Devo10 immediately as I bought a Futaba 14SG for my bigger (expensive) heli's and planes. (The move to buy the Futaba is both a reliability concern and to ensure I am taken seriously by the old hands at our Club where I want to get into Aerobatic flying.

I have no facts to put on the table for or against the reliability/stability of the Devo TXs and Devention/Deviation software. Having now flown more than 2 years with Devo TXs and their receivers I cannot mention even one failure.

I have Deviation loaded on 1 Devo8s and fly many smaller models using the A7105 and CC2500 models, - apart from the issues raised and fixed on this forum as we develop the firmware, there are no issues I can raise either.

Personally I don't think you can go wrong with a Devo10 - it is great value for money and with Deviation even more so.

I currently use a range modded Devo 7E with Deviation 4.01 and love it. I ordered a Taranis today so hope deviation is on the way too for it.

From what I can see, Deviation 4 is bullet proof.
I have not seen any posts of in flight reboots, and haven't had any myself.
Deviation 3 rebooted on me once, but the other ~300 flights went ok.

Since then I've upgraded the trusty Devo 10 to 4.0.1, using it for a number of smaller helicopters, two quads, an auto gyro and six planes. Completely trust it.
My crashes are 100% pilot error.

Reliability is important, so I don't experiment with the nightlies, and only upgrade when the official release had some evaluation time.

I can speak from my own experience with the 'name' brands. I have lost (3) large .60 size planes due to Spektrum DX7 transmitter failure (broken internal antenna lead).

Then lost a 30cc gas plane & (2) electrics to a new DX8 and it's internal design flaws, it was serviced 3 times.

Lost 1 edf due to a poor DSM2 receiver.

I now use the Devo 12s (4.0.1) with all my DSMX receivers with no problems. I use a Devo 7e with all my 'small' heli's and bnf planes. I have not had either radio give me problems while flying a model.

During setup I have had my moments but once in use, everything has worked properly.

I really think that the Deviation software has more testers than some of the 'big boys'.

JM2C

Thanks for the hard work....

I have my Devo 10 with the Deviation loaded now for maybe 4 months using the latest version and I really love it.
I did have to go thru (and am still learning) the programming, but I see it as a learning tool.
My radio is rock solid with no evidence of any kind of problems at all.
I know of a few guys that use (or use to use) The Spektrum radios and had big time failures with them.
I used to fly nothing but JR, got away from flying for about 15 plus yrs., started flying again with my Devo 10 radio and love it.
To me, I can honestly say that with the deviation firmware, I feel sorry for the other guys with the big 4 radios that are pretty much locked in to those companies products. ( I think I said it right)

I use mine on any thing from a small V949 quad up to my big Stik and soon BJ Craft Monolog Pattern ship.

Although most posters here are likely to be somewhat biased, the stories have a distinct similarity (and focus) - reliability.
This reputation is shared between the hardware manufacturer and the software developer, and considering the sometimes lacking QC at Walkera, it's a great testimonial to the quality of the software.

A few days ago I was at a new flying field and noted that Futaba was the thing to have among club members. I was there for three hours and witnessed three crashes of larger I/C planes, all in some way related to radio issues.
I had a 30 min flight with my 10 year old son on a Devo 7 buddy box to my Devo 10/4.01, of course without any problems.
Club members were curious about the setup. Few knew about Walkera, less about Deviation.

My point is that we need to profile Deviation as a _Reliable_ _All-in-one_ solution to RC, beyond toy stuff.
The open source thing actually makes this harder as there's really no incentive to make Deviation a big player apart from us already reformed.

My fear is that when the few that actually writes code for Deviation finds more interesting projects or runs out of time for non profit work leaves, no one will take over.

What do you think - should we try to get the news out to the masses or keep it as a 'club feature'?

RRacer wrote: What do you think - should we try to get the news out to the masses or keep it as a 'club feature'?

Personally, I think that the DeviationTX communauty is (still) growing (fast) ...

I have converted 4 guys at the field to deviation/walkera. These guys have been in the hobby for many more years that I have, and dont fly any toy like aircraft. They came from the spectrums and futabas, and they love the programability of devention, and the feel of walkeras gimbals. The deviation movement is still an "underground" movement, but I think the major company developers will soon be implementing the abilities of deviation in there tx's.