"german legal version" of deviationtx ???

Hello!

I'm Joscha from Germany. In our german forum we had a discussion about DeviationTX and if it's legal in Germany to use it.

In Germany a 2,4 GHz model transmitter isn't allowed to use a tx-power higher than 10 mW on a single channel. So the maximum tx-power for a single channel transmitter should be <10 mW. And maximum 10 x <10 mW = <100 mW for a multi channel transmitter with frequency hopping.

My question is:
Could you make a "german legal version" of DeviationTX?
There should no tx-powers with more than 10 mW be available.

Me and some other guys in our forum want to use DeviationTX, but with the higher tx-power options it's a bit difficult. We don't want tell someone to use DeviationTX untill it's violating german law.

I tried to change it myself, but my programming skills are too weak.


Thanks a lot!

The person using Deviation should be a good law abiding citizen and limit power to 10mW or 100mW for DSMX for example.

Problem solved.

Now, on a more serious note, Deviation is freely available so any limitation is easily overcome by flashing a different version.

Your effort will be much better spent educating people and making them understand why the law has such limitations and why is better to abide by them.

sbstnp wrote: The person using Deviation should be a good law abiding citizen and limit power to 10mW or 100mW for DSMX for example.

Problem solved.

Not in every case.

In the case of an accident with material or human damage it's possible that the insurance will not pay. And that only cause you can coose a higher tx-power at the transmitter than allowed. If you uses the allowed tx-power isn't important in that case.

As a moderator of our forum I have to advise the others not to use DeviationTX. And that only cause the higher available tx-powers.

But I think it's the better firmware. I like it. The GUI is much better and the german manual is great. It's hard to find a good german manual for any Devo transmitter.

So it would be a pity if we can't use it in a legal way.

Hi,
I am no legal guy - but I understand your point.
However, I think it is the same situation with cars: If I have a BMW M series that can go with 280+ km/h, and make an accident in the city with 50km/h, they will put me to jail because of speeding with 280 km/h, just because it is possible?
I do not live in Germany, (other EU), but here if you state something, you need to prove it = insurance company must prove you were breaking the law, with measurements using calibrated instruments...

But if the law says max 10mW, then if you use 10mW power, (you are doing 50km/h in the city not 280...), nobody should find you guilty, just because you COULD HAVE broken the law.

Just the question of a good lawyer

cheers
bm

Let me put it this way :
let's assume there is a "limited" edition of Deviation for Germany.
You are using the FULL version.
Make an accdent.
FW update to limited edition: 2 minutes.
By the time anyone gets there, you are clear.
So what is the point?
...

Seriously - I don't think anyone who has spent 100s or 1000s of EUR on their RC plane/copter will voluntarily limit their tx range and risk a crash (actually, that is more dangerous than a higher power...but that is not the point, it is the law...)

Your example with your BMW is a good one for german insurances. If your BMW has a 250 km/h limitation, you can get a ceaper price for your insurance. If you remove the limitation and have an accident your insurance will not pay. In Germany you have to pay more for your insurance if your car can drive more than 250 km/h.

It's the same with the Devo firmware. There are two firmwares available at Walkera, the international 100 mW firmware and the european (special german) 10 mW firmware. The 10 mW firmware is allowed in Germany and the 100 mW firmware is not. You can use both ones. But you need a computer to change the firmware. And that's important. You need a tool to change the tx-power. A firmware that suplies a toolless change to illegal tx-powers isn't allowed in Germany. And so your insurance will not pay in case of an accident.

Sure the risk this will happen is very low, but it could happen.

I don't know how it works in other countries. If you have an accident with human damage in Germany the police will confiscate your model and the complete equipment. A specialist will proof your equipment. If he finds the availability of illegal tx-powers in your firmware you have a problem.

billmester wrote: Seriously - I don't think anyone who has spent 100s or 1000s of EUR on their RC plane/copter will voluntarily limit their tx range and risk a crash (actually, that is more dangerous than a higher power...but that is not the point, it is the law...)

This thing is also discussed in our forum. For a high range the Devo transmitters aren't useful in Germany.

But for my car it's OK. I needed a transmitter with more than four channels. All wheel steering, speed controller, winch and light switching module need minimum five channels. So the Devo10 was a good and cheap choice.

The others use it for small copters without hughe distance to the model.

Please. then advise Devo7e only, it is restricted by hardware and will do only 7-8 mW.
Deviation is still a charm with it.
End....

Is anybody at your forum using a Spektrum DX6i?
They can be easily set to european, french and US powersettings, by your understanding, that would make them illegal in Germany...

I have a vison,...........
Deviation firmware download restricted by IP.
LOL

Sero wrote: Is anybody at your forum using a Spektrum DX6i?

This is a very good point.

Yoshi can you check if Spektrum transmitters sold in Germany are limited in settings? I know US setting allows power to up to 125mW.

And by the way, as long as firmware is freely available for download, any lawyer worth his/her salt will make you look guilty. Just sayin'.

Just read the topic in this forum.
The thread starter is on the safe side, bought a Devo7....
So it would not concern him.

aMax wrote: The thread starter is on the safe side, bought a Devo7....

???

I have a Devo10 and my father in law has a Devo7.

I don't know the Spektrum transmitters. I'm normaly using Sanwa. But in their "Spektrum Regulatory FAQ" they say:
(Spektrum’s DSM technology satisfies each of the requirements of FHSS modulation as specified in EN 300-328 v.1.7.1. As the closing sentence of that clause states, “Systems that meet the above constraints shall be tested according to the requirements for FHSS modulation.” Therefore, DSM is subject to the maximum power level of 100mW as detailed in clause 4.3.1.2, and not subject to the limit of non-FHSS systems of 10mW as specified in section 4.3.2.2. Conformity tests as well as on-going production tests confirm that EU versions of DSM products meet the 100mW requirement.)

This is only for europe countrys.

If they use a switch at the backplate to choose the tx-power, it mustn't reachable with the fingers. So you have to use a tool to change it.

I know, silly laws, but laws.

Simply put, by doing the range mod, installing any modules, or using an unofficial firmware, you are ALWAYS violating the FCC permit (they basically license/permit all radio equipment here) and therefore the transmitter is no longer legal.

Arakon wrote: Simply put, by doing the range mod, installing any modules, or using an unofficial firmware, you are ALWAYS violating the FCC permit (they basically license/permit all radio equipment here) and therefore the transmitter is no longer legal.

You meen changing the official firmware always makes a transmitter illegal?

I understood it so, that the transmitter has to be inside the allowed standards and than it's OK.

The transmitter is never been tested by someone official. Only the producer says it is inside the allowed standards. If it's not the producer get a problem if someone would recognise it.

So I thought in this case it's the same. I have to look for operating inside the allowed standards. If it's not than I have a problem. I thought using another firmware is OK if it's inside the allowed standards.

On Walkera HP stands: "Warning: Please comply to the local laws and rules to update the software, we don’t take responsibility to any online update lawbreaking."

Yep... laws are laws.

Arakon is right. 3rd party mods are not tolerated by FCC.
Or any official body, for that matter.

But still - it needs to be proved that the TX was the failure in case of the accident. Or a faulty servo

What would happen, if you would make a Tx from scratch? 10mW, but no FCC or any approval? Illegal? Or not covered by insurance? Even if it is is properly proven that the fault was a servo defect (for example)?

Other question. How about using DSM on Deviation?

Crap!

Than this discussion is useless in any way.

But thanks for all your postings and explainings.


Sure I will use DeviationTX in future. But I won't advise it in our forum. Sorry for that, but everyone should decide this for himself.

Arakon wrote: Simply put, by doing the range mod, installing any modules, or using an unofficial firmware, you are ALWAYS violating the FCC permit (they basically license/permit all radio equipment here) and therefore the transmitter is no longer legal.

It's still legal to own and possibly use in the US. The FCC certificates from the manufacturer no longer apply, but if the radio still meets regulations it's fine.

Found these paragraphs here that would seem to apply:
Hobbyists, inventors and other parties that design and build Part 15 transmitters with no intention of ever marketing them may construct and operate up to five such transmitters for their own personal use without having to obtain FCC equipment authorization. If possible, these transmitters should be tested for compliance with the Commission's rules. If such testing is not practicable, their designers and builders are required to employ good engineering practices in order to ensure compliance with the
(Part 15 standards.Section 15.23)

Home-built transmitters, like all Part 15 transmitters, are not allowed to cause interference to licensed radio communications and must accept any interference that they receive. If a home-built Part 15 transmitter does cause interference to licensed radio communications, the Commission will require its operator to cease operation until the interference problem is
corrected. Furthermore, if the Commission determines that the operator of such a transmitter has not attempted to ensure compliance with the Part
15 technical standards by employing good engineering practices then that operator may be fined up to $10,000 for each violation and $75,000 for a repeat or continuing violation. (Section 15.5)

Seems to be a great thing in US.

But it's useless in Europe.

Hi Yoshi,

to get back to this topic.
I want to state that according to german law it is not "illegal" to use Self-Breeding-Radios (like many users had done so in the past and without there would be no commercial rc-product at all).
In 2011 there were some irritations due to actual changes in law (necessity to have an insurance before fligh etc.), therefore the lawyers of DFMV and DAEC were asked for their opinion. You can find their answers in many german forums. An excerpt is shortly written and it states, that the pilot is responsible for his equipment function according the actual laws. In these statement of the DFMV there is an example that says that when your tx is fallen down an had therefore a failure which allows to send with more than allowed power, it is your responsibility.
Another example was that e.g. using an orange-module within a Futaba-tx dock is a usage out-of-boundaries of the Futaba Konformitätserklärung and so the Konformitätserklärung ends there.
So using Deviation is more or less the same than using equipment from different manufacturers (in a legal state).
To be within the boundaries of this law would be really hard way to go.
So the only thing here is, I think, always be careful. No flying in crowded areas and check everything before flight.
Using Deviation itself is not breaking german law, but to be in the boundaries of the law it is your own responsibility. Btw. FrSky Taranis is using openTX and so in my opinion there is absolutely no difference between Devo with Deviation and Taranis with openTX