Deviation model writing service?

It's been suggested that some people would like to pay to have model.ini files for their Tx/aircraft, rather than searching through the forums or asking for help. This idea makes me a bit queasy, for a number of reasons. But if it's something that people really want, I'd be more than happy to do that. So the question is, is this something people really want?

The reason it makes me queasy is that the community ought to be willing to help people. I try, but would generally rather tell people how than write the model, so that they have a better chance of doing it themselves next time. I do tend to ignore requests that are vague, or otherwise indicate that the requestor hasn't really thought things through. My worry is that I'll become even pickier about who I help in hopes they'll become customers, which strikes me as bad for the community. But I keep coming back to this idea since my health issues are affecting my income.

So, want to tell me what you think about it? If you're in favor of it, suggestions on things to prevent it from becoming a detriment to the community would be appreciated. If nobody is, then maybe the idea will go away.

imo there is nothing wrong with providing a service bud, and as always with these things the market will decide if it's going to work or not.

Yeah, but I don't want to do the work to set it up/promote it if there it's going to be bad for the community! I can live with wasting time only for there to be not market, but I want to avoid that negative impact.

PB just touch on my issues. If I did this, it would have to be clear it was as a last resort - you should search for model files first on the wiki and in the forums, and then ask for help, and if you couldn't get what you wanted that way, then you might try paying for one.

It would also be made clear that I leep the copyright on the resulting files and would, barring something really exceptional, makes the results available to the community at large. You're paying for my time to create the model file, not the model file itself.

But even with all that going on, I'm still not comfortable with this. If the idea didn't keep coming back to me, I'd have just ignore it and move on.

This is still out there, and I just got the last surgery done, so maybe it's no longer necessary, but I finally found an idea I think would work well.

A Patreon page. This winds up looking like a support contract for deviationTx. I.e. - you want new model files at regular intervals? Cough up $5/month on patreon, and it's pretty much yours. And so on.

I've created an account and done some initial set up. It's not life yet, because I want to review it with fewer narcotics in my blood (I did my last scheduled surgery today, and frankly I already feel better than I did yesterday), and see what other developers/supporters/etc. think of this idea.

I understand and agree with the idea of not commercializing the site, but it could be helpful to the community to have a model writing service. Some people just don’t have the skill or time to learn how to write their own. By making all model files that a person is paid to write, free to all other users, it would enhance the sharing of model files in the community. However, it could become a bit messy since part of a model file is based on preference. I’m new to DeviationTX and this site. When getting started I had to search for model files from various groups. They made good examples and I ended up rewriting parts of them to suit my preferences. Things like which switch handles which function, what’s presented on the display and where, along with things like rates, expo, and timers. If a person is paying to have a model file written then it would be tailored to their preference. If multiple people pay, with different preferences, then a lot of similar model files could be released to the public. A method of documenting the features in each model file would be needed to keep things straight.

I would like to see a database of model files on this site. I was a little surprised in the beginning that such an area doesn’t exist and that I had to search for the files from multiple sources. It could be integrated into the Supported Models list with a clickable link for each model. The link could point to a page with multiple model files for that particular model, with a descriptive text file associated with each model file to explain its function. A standardized format could be used for the text file so it would be easy to compare them. Each person submitting a model file would be required to also supply a descriptive text file.

so you want people who put the time in to learn the system and share their model files to also write description files for those shared models when sharing them because others wont put in the time or effort to learn? seriously?

I understand what you're saying but i suppose we should consider the people who don't want to put in the time and effort and want a quick fix so to speak.
I myself was initially overwhelmed but with a little trial and error figured it out.
Thing is, people nowadays IMO are hesitant to read in general.
I guess this could mean more people using deviation which might be a good thing

that's the problem nowadays, too many entitled people expecting everyone else to do everything and not pitch in, but enough politics from me. just remember everyone here is a volunteer, imposing things like that will scare away the people we want and encourage those we don't

First, let's acknowledge that programming deviationTx is hard. I think we'll all admit that programming proprietary firmware is easier - I still recall the host of an RC podcast complaining that programming the Taranis "required a CS degree". But that's hard enough that model vendors provide model files for them.

It isn't so hard as to require a genius, or some magical ability or skill set, but not easy. And I fully understand that people would rather fly than program a transmitter - or learn how. There's no shame in that, any more than there's any shame in not wanting to fly rather than build a DIY model, or 3D print and design your own. There's lots of skills to work on in the hobby, but it's supposed to be fun. So you might as well concentrate on the parts you enjoy, knowing that doing so may cost a little extra.

I've put a lot of effort into trying to make it easier to use deviation: helping people on the forums, sharing technics here, and writing programming tutorials. The service feels like a logical next step. While I'm willing to help anyone people who are trying to learn, tweaking an existing model file - whether to move functionality from one switch to anther, or make it work on a different Tx - is work, and not something I tend to do. This would provide me incentive to do that.

I also agree that we need a curated list of model files. But curated implies a curator, and again that's not something I've been willing to take on. While I've encouraged other people to do that - even went so far as to ask a librarian friend of mine about it- it hasn't happened. That could also fall out of this. Have to think about it....

Thank you all for the input.

HappyHarry wrote: so you want people who put the time in to learn the system and share their model files to also write description files for those shared models when sharing them because others wont put in the time or effort to learn? seriously?

Yes, if they are to be included in a database. Nothing fancy, just basic info such as which model of transmitter it was written for, if for a 7E whether the switch mod is required, which switches perform which functions, Overall which functions are included such as a flip switch, and camera control. Model files without descriptions could be shared the same way they are now, in the forum, but not in the database. If descriptive text files are not included then a person would need to read the model file to determine its function. If they have the knowledge to understand the contents of the file, then with a bit of effort they would be able to write what they need, or at least modify an existing file. So how does this help the person that doesn't have the time or skill to write model files? Writing a simple descriptive text file as I've described would be simple for the model file creator. I sometimes see the same kind of information shared in forums when someone posts a model file.

I believe it's best for people to learn how to do things themselves and if having difficulty can ask for help and receive it here on the forums..A true model-ist will be willing to learn how to do things so the next time they will be more confident setting up a new model...I myself have asked for help many times and thankfully received it and have learned in the process with the help of others here on the forums...

HappyHarry wrote: that's the problem nowadays, too many entitled people expecting everyone else to do everything and not pitch in, but enough politics from me. just remember everyone here is a volunteer, imposing things like that will scare away the people we want and encourage those we don't

Happy Harry doesn't seem too happy at the moment.

I too have been annoyed by some with a strong sense of entitlement, but I don't see an entitlement component here. We are talking about a model writing service for those that can't or don't want to provide for themselves, so they pay. Then making those model files available to everyone for free to spread the goodness around. It seems that the major complaint is my suggestion of including a descriptive text file because it would put a burden on volunteers and discourage them from sharing. I don't see it that way since the kind of descriptive text file I'm suggesting would take very little time to write, and could be very helpful to the end user. It's not too much to ask to know the basic functions performed by the model file.

It reminds me of a story I heard about a shopper walking past a homeless person while entering a grocery store. On the way out the shopper handed the homeless person a can of beef stew. The homeless person looked up at the shopper as if to say, what am I suppose to do with this? He had a can with no can opener and no spoon, so the gift wasn't useful as presented. I see the descriptive text file as the can opener and spoon.

Creating a database of model files would certainly take some effort, but with a database in place more people might share their model files. I know that some members of this forum have lots of model files in their transmitters, but they may not share unless someone asks for a specific model. If there was a central place where they could upload and share their files that everyone could see without having to wade through numerous forum posts or use the search tool, then maybe they would be more motivated to share their files.

magic_marty wrote: I believe it's best for people to learn how to do things themselves and if having difficulty can ask for help and receive it here on the forums..A true model-ist will be willing to learn how to do things so the next time they will be more confident setting up a new model...I myself have asked for help many times and thankfully received it and have learned in the process with the help of others here on the forums...

While I agree that it's best for people to learn how to do things themselves, I find the suggestion that someone who would rather fly than figure out how to create model files is in some sense inferior to everyone else offensive, and think it's bad for the hobby.

I mean, why stop at model files? Shouldn't a "true model-ist" be willing to learn how to install the build tools, fetch the sources and build deviationTx for their transmitter? So we don't need to create releases, or even test builds. We already help people set up build environments, and even provide both docker images and VM images with things set up if that's easier. After all, it's better to learn how to do things for yourself, and you'll be more confident in the resulting firmware.

Ok, maybe I'm stretching things a bit, because most people don't consider software development to be part of model aviation, but aircraft configuration almost always is. I don't agree with them - playing with the software, and building custom transmitter, receiver and telemetry are a large part of the hobby for me. But just because I enjoy those things doesn't mean I expect that everyone should, nor does it mean that people who don't enjoy those things aren't "true hobby-ists".

Everything we do in the hobby, from writing new firmware to flying, provides an excuse to exclude people from the community if they don't do that, Such exclusion is a bad thing. It means the rest of us don't benefit from their knowledge and work - especially important if they're doing things we don't want to do - and they don't get a chance to learn from us. It diminishes us all.

just for clarity purposes I'm not including people who would be willing to pay for model files in my mini tirade lol, as paying mike not only gets a model file for the whole commumity, it helps a big contributor to deviation in a small way, that in my eyes is giving back for what they are receiving, as said we all aren't good at coding, creating ini's etc but there are other ways to contribute to projects like deviation. the people I mean are those who only ever consume without giving or intending to give anything back, either by trying to help out on the forums/wiki or even spending a half hour installing and testing a nightly and reporting any bugs found etc. there are so many of these 'consumers' in open source communities it's become very noticeable to me.

also I'm still happy lol, though I was on the last day of my vacation yesterday, so vacation blues may have been a factor in me mentioning one of my bugbears lol, and it was more in reply to enforcing a rule on those who share models to include a txt file fully explaining the ini's settings for those unwilling to learn anything

Hopefully I don't offend anybody here. Just my little 2 cents here.

Just think of it like social health care. Everybody is entitled to it. Some have to wait a little longer if you want free stuff. If you want quicker service and can afford it, you are in front of the line.

Me...I gained a lot from this forum and I just want to give back to the community.

To each their own. There is no right or wrong.

Hey Mr. MWM, the service you are offering would be a lifesaver, I really hope you bring it to life.

People who have the time, experience, and eagerness to learn about ini and mixer tuning have plenty of resources to do so. For example, this beauty of a write up must have taken DAYS to complete.
rc.mired.org/p/blog-page.html?m=1
does the author look familiar?

But even with such a comprehensive write up, some people don't have the time, patience, opportunity, physical or mental ability, etc to absorb what you wrote and put it into play.

Even people who somewhat know what they are doing would be more than happy to pay 5 or 10 bucks to have you personalize and fine tune their fleet so that they can make the most out of their radios and craft. I have had lots of customers ask me to help with their ini files and mixer tuning, I unfortunately do not know how to do that, and they then would have to go through the learning curve of learning themselves, call a friend, or simply give up. Having you as an option would be a great thing, especially for people like me who would have to spend weeks researching and experimenting to maybe get desired results. Personally, when I get back to flying helicopters I would love to get a personalized live one on one interaction with you and compensate you for your time so you can buy yourself a beer and a sandwich on me.

Anywho, it really is win win win for all stakeholders.

I run this service that piggy backs off of deviation. www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2364228 It was made for people who are unable to solder on modules, or don't want to run the risk of soldering on modules and damaging their radios, or breath the fumes, or have the time or competencies to take on the learning curve, or whatever reason they rather not . I started this service because I saw a need, i myself was hoping someone would have provided this service when I was looking to modify my devo 6s. At the same time, on the page itself I link virtually every step/resource I can think of in doing the task yourself (I actually use that page as a reference to myself as well). I would have loved to offer those services for free, however, that would have been impractical. Instead, I charged the lowest and most reasonable price I could for the service. With the money made, i take my family to go eat at IHOP.

cheers m8s.

Ok, I've just launched the Patreon page. That just makes it public; I'm still setting things up, but thought I'd solicit input from those of you who have enough interest in this to be following this thread.

You can look at the page, see how things are structured, and even subscribe at www.patreon.com/user?u=3622898 .

Jon.m.barter's post #51495 is important because it distinguishes between types of service which have different impacts for beginners. Bearing in mind the steep and broad learning curve for this hobby, I think that:
1. Jon's service is more important because it solves basic equipment problems that prevent people from even trying to get off the ground. Had I known of anybody here in Europe rendering the same service, I would have embraced it unreservedly. It is to be hoped that the forthcoming 'plug and play 4-in-1' module will greatly simplify this thankless task.
2. The model writing service that mwm has in the pipeline is for a different beginner, who is possibly in a hurry, feels somewhat intimidated by having to learn a programming language, but sooner rather than later will have to delve into it, in order to diversify his flying experience.
In order to help the more fearful ones venture into the 'mixing', and not get bogged down by a flood of simple requests, I suggest that mwm submit two files per request: one to be loaded onto the tx via USB, and another copy with comments alongside each section.

If DeviationTx is to expand its 'market' niche, it has to address the problems beginners feel on the road to a decent flying experience. I am amazed at how much effort and patience developers put into answering queries in the various forums. The kinds of services envisaged should go a long way toward alleviating that workload.