toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

domcars0
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09 Apr 2013 15:41 - 09 Apr 2013 15:43 #8793 by domcars0

toggle.bmp needs a 'standard' was created by domcars0

Taking a look to
deviationtx.com/forum/model-configs/1665...ginner-settings#8783

I think the file toggle.bmp need a 'standard' to have the switch icons configuration compatible between the Colors (6/8/12) and the B&W (10/7e) screens TX.
Something like

First icon : blank
2nd : TH Off
3rd : TH On
4th : FMODE0
5th : FMODE1
etc ....

Devo 10 (+7e) owner. It's mine, please don't touch it with your big fingers

Last edit: 09 Apr 2013 15:43 by domcars0.

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PhracturedBlue
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09 Apr 2013 17:51 #8798 by PhracturedBlue

Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

well, Deviation ships with only 6 icons for the Devo8 but has twenty-something for the dveo10. I am fine with having the default icons use the same positions in both versions, but we currently don't have enough to do so at the moment. I guess I could leave a bunch of blank spaces, but that seems pretty crude, and will be very confusing to anyone selecting a new icon from the list.

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RandMental
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09 Apr 2013 19:06 #8802 by RandMental

Replied by RandMental on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

As you guys may have noticed Tom Z and I have identified a few issues between the V2 and V3 handling of the switches and their icon assignments. Tom also noticed differences between the Devo8 and the Devo8 emulator in this regard. My Devo7e is out on loan and I know there was some work done to display the correct switch icons for the two standard switches.

Having a default or "standard" toggle.bmp between the different devo TXs will definitely help, but I have not looked into the access method to understand the implications of defining a standard between the devo10 and devo8.

For now I would be happy with just an extended icon library to select appropriate Icons based on the use of the switches. I think I saw one earlier today from RBE, and perhapse with a few iterations we can agree on a new default for the devo 8 and devo 10 respectively.

Any one to start with their custom toggle.bmp?

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domcars0
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09 Apr 2013 20:02 #8807 by domcars0

Replied by domcars0 on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

A guy named 'proteus' has probably a devo8 allready customized toggle.bmp, I've contacted him.

Devo 10 (+7e) owner. It's mine, please don't touch it with your big fingers

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proteus
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10 Apr 2013 02:17 - 10 Apr 2013 02:19 #8813 by proteus

Replied by proteus on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

I already tried to add custom icons to my toogle.bmp. but He is apparently, I can not do it, I can just modify the existing one.

I had to change all my config based on the toggle.bmp 3.0.0

Last edit: 10 Apr 2013 02:19 by proteus.

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PhracturedBlue
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10 Apr 2013 03:07 #8816 by PhracturedBlue

Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

I updated the release notes with this info. Sadly, the next release will break them again because we do need to synchronize the icons between the devo8 and devo10

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rbe2012
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10 Apr 2013 06:42 #8819 by rbe2012

Replied by rbe2012 on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

proteus wrote: I already tried to add custom icons to my toogle.bmp. but He is apparently, I can not do it, I can just modify the existing one...

I simply used GIMP and resized the image with "image - canvas size". The main thing was that you have to be careful to resize in steps of 32 pixels (width).
With the newer toggle icon functionality the file must not have only one line of icons. So actually the icon file can have x*32 width and y*31 height.
I fiddled around with gimp with layers and selections and canvas but now it works.
Maybe I can place a description or a video in the howto-area, but not in the next few days.

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rbe2012
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10 Apr 2013 06:55 #8820 by rbe2012

Replied by rbe2012 on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

PhracturedBlue wrote: ...need to synchronize the icons between the devo8 and devo10

I am not the great artist but if you can tell me what to to I would try to design at least the icons for the color version.
First we should have a list of the icons we want to have and their order. I personally think we should prepare one icon for each switch state (which could be used as defaults if not individually set), maybe in an easy and clear design. Everybody can change them later for his needs.
Icons can be used for more than switches (sticks, real and virtual channels) - do we need standard icons for every state?

Just an idea: could we make a web site (or scripts for every OS, what could be easier...) where users can choose from a collection of icons these which should populate their individual toggles.bmp? Something like the toggle select page?
Do we have someone here who could manage this?

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domcars0
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10 Apr 2013 10:33 #8823 by domcars0

Replied by domcars0 on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

Proteus, here is a template which can contain up to 24 icons.
Take care that each icon MUST be 32px width.

Devo 10 (+7e) owner. It's mine, please don't touch it with your big fingers

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PhracturedBlue
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10 Apr 2013 14:17 #8825 by PhracturedBlue

Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

rbe2012 wrote:
PhracturedBlue wrote: ...need to synchronize the icons between the devo8 and devo10
First we should have a list of the icons we want to have and their order. I personally think we should prepare one icon for each switch state (which could be used as defaults if not individually set)

Yes this is basically what we have for the Devo10. Probably the best way to do it is by capability:
have the 1st set of icons be those that are generic (don't necessarily bind to a specific switch), then those that are common to all Tx followed by those that are common to most tx, followed by those that are specific to a given tx.

7e: thold0, thold1, fmode0, fmode1
8/10: ruddr0, ruddr1, eledr0, eledr1, aildr0, aildr1, gear0, gear1, mix0, mix1, mix2, fmode0,fmode1, fmode2
12: ruddr0, ruddr1, ruddr2, eledr0, eledr1, eledr2, aildr0, aildr1, aildr2, gear0, gear1, mix0, mix1, mix2, fmode0, fmode1, fmode2, thold0, thold1, train0, train1

Just an idea: could we make a web site (or scripts for every OS, what could be easier...) where users can choose from a collection of icons these which should populate their individual toggles.bmp? Something like the toggle select page?

Possibly. My current thought is that the default deviation comes with a full set of icons consistent across all models all drawn in the same 'theme'. It makes it easy for someone to offer an alternative theme with the same icon positions. If users want to add more icons, it's probably best to let them append those to the end (maybe we create an 'icons' folder and let them drop individual files in there)

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RandMental
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10 Apr 2013 14:29 #8826 by RandMental

Replied by RandMental on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

PhracturedBlue wrote: PB: My current thought is that the default deviation comes with a full set of icons consistent across all models all drawn in the same 'theme'. It makes it easy for someone to offer an alternative theme with the same icon positions.

I agree, and I was hopping to offer a sample, but wow, I'll need a week to learn Gimp

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PhracturedBlue
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11 Apr 2013 19:31 - 11 Apr 2013 19:32 #8869 by PhracturedBlue

Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

Here's a rough idea about what I'm thinking for the layout.
I did it for the Devo10 because there are already more icons for it (note: the icons are crude, I didn't spend any time working with them)

The layout I chose is:
'?' always needs to be 1st, followed by:
FMode0, Mix0, D/R0, DR_Rud0, DR_Ail0, DR_Ele0, Flap0, Gear0, T/H0, Train0
FMode1, Mix1, D/R1, DR_Rud1, DR_Ail1, DR_Ele1, Flap1, Gear1, T/H1, Train1
Fmode2, Mix2, D/R2, DR_Rud2, DR_Ail2, DR_Ele2, Flap2

I didn't leave space for a 'gear2' or 'thold2' or 'train2' icon as they don't really make any sense.

We'll need to choose between regular and inverted icons for the Devo10 for fmode/mix since today both are provided, but that doesn't make sense given that each position now has a default purpose.
We could choose to not deliver icons for the '2' position for the 128x64 (or 320x240) display since neither has switches for them (except for fmode and mix of course)

The downside of this layout is that in the future if we need to add new icons, they need to go on the end (since we don't want to alter the icon positions again). So you'd end up with 'foo0, foo1, foo2' icons at the end which is not very elegant.
The other alternative is to define the icons in the order:

'?' always needs to be 1st, followed by:
FMode0, FMode1, FMode2, Mix0, Mix1, Mix2, D/R0, D/R1, D/R2,
DR_Rud0, DR_Rud1, DR_Rud2, DR_Ail0, DR_Ail1, DR_Ail2,
DR_Ele0, DR_Ele1, DR_Ele2, Flap0, Flap1, Flap2, Gear0, Gear1, T/H0, T/H1, Train0, Train1

This looks better when adding new icons later, but means that we must supply '2' icons on all models even though they aren't generally useful.

Last edit: 11 Apr 2013 19:32 by PhracturedBlue.

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domcars0
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11 Apr 2013 20:44 - 11 Apr 2013 21:05 #8871 by domcars0

Replied by domcars0 on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

After some weeks of experience, I'm not sure that the 'zero' positions are very usefull (personnaly I leave them blank).
Also, I think it's better to deliver the F1,F2,M1,M2 inverted icon (White on Black), because, depending on the 'view' of the pilot, he will see better one than the other.
So, we can remove F0,M0 (we keep the other '0' as inverted color icons) . It make 5 free spaces where we can put F1, F2, M1,M2 inverted icons... one space is still free...
For sure we can also remove D/R2, DR_Rud2, DR_Ail2, DR_Ele2, Flap2 for 128 & 320 screens.
Also, I prefer the first order.

Devo 10 (+7e) owner. It's mine, please don't touch it with your big fingers

Last edit: 11 Apr 2013 21:05 by domcars0.

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PhracturedBlue
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11 Apr 2013 22:59 #8874 by PhracturedBlue

Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

Don't worry about available spaces. If we go over the limit, I will add a scrollbar. Given that the whole point of this is to provide model writers with a stable icon starting point, I'm more in favor of leaving the '0' icons even if they aren't commonly used. If no one has any use for them, then I am ok with removing them I guess. Note, this doesn't mean you don't assign an icon to position 0 (such as folks who swap the definitions of '0' and '1'), it is more a question if people prefer to have an icon always visible and just have the picture/color change when the switch toggles.

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rbe2012
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12 Apr 2013 05:36 #8886 by rbe2012

Replied by rbe2012 on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

PhracturedBlue wrote: it is more a question if people prefer to have an icon always visible and just have the picture/color change when the switch toggles.

This is what I prefer. Flying a number of different models makes me mixing up some things sometimes. So an icon what tells me what I have programmed is helpful (e.g. I have green, yellow and orange icons for FMODE and always make sure to start with the green one).

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rbe2012
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12 Apr 2013 07:29 #8887 by rbe2012

Replied by rbe2012 on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

I prepared such a nice and long answer but it was lost due to connection problems...

I try again (shorter):
I propose to deliver an icon file which has standard icons for the different states inside. I believe it will be no problem to adapt the method reading the icons to take the icon for state "0" from the pixel lines 0..30, "1" from 31..61 and so on. So we would have a file which is ([question mark]+NUM_SWITCHES)*32 pixels wide and 3*31 pixels high (with some unused space where the non-existing states could be placed...). If we have more switches sometime (e.g. the recently discusses virtual switches... no progress by me so far), we put them at the right end.
This will be the common standard for all.
For user specific icons we use another file where not structure is regulated. Every user can put in there the icons he likes.
To differentiate between the standard and the user specific icon we can use different icon index ranges (e.g. 0..99 for standard, =>100 for individuals). If an icon is references which is not available on another tx (distributed model file) deviation can replace this with the standard icon for the associated switch state.

What I might have missed: do we talk only about icons for switches? Actually toggle icons can also be used for the other (analog) inputs like the sticks and AUX4... Personally I do not think that icons for analog input make too much sense (except digital outputs controlled by analog inputs like light control).

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RandMental
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12 Apr 2013 11:27 - 12 Apr 2013 11:31 #8889 by RandMental

Replied by RandMental on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

I must admit reading through the options proposed and counter proposals I have difficulty in forming a picture of the final implications and effects in the real world.

Please humor me as I start at the beginning using the 80/20 user principle: (apologies where this is a repeat of suggestions already made):

The most critical aspect of this discussion/feature needs to be a consistent and logical (intuitive) method/process using icons-

assigning a TX switch and each switch status, to icons
assigning a screen location to a switch and switch statuses

(This I believe were mostly in place, but were broken in the V3 release)

The second requirement, which I believe will satisfy 80% of the Deviation users:

Design and include two default (standard) bmp files (Devo10/7e and Devo6/8/12 respectively) with icons for ALL switches and switch statuses based on the Walkera switch names for all the supported TXs
Enable and assign the active (ON) state of ON/OFF switches to its ON-Icon, and all 3 statuses of 3 way switches such as FMOD and MIX
Included in the same BMP file a range of useful icons for alternative use of switches, i.e. TH, such as those various users have already posted on the forum
Make these assignments standard across all TXs in the official firmware releases and its modelXX.ini template files;
Provide clear instructions for non technical users how to select these alternative icons in the standard BMP file in their model.ini files
In time, make available a number of "standard" alternative .bmp files, using the same format and icons (ie. with different colour schemes, reverse icons for the Devo10/7e, etc.), which replaces the default .bmp file without any changes required to your existing modelxx.ini files.

The requirements for the 20% technical savvy users that can customise and build their own firmware:

Provide a user guidelines/manual so one don't have to study the firmware to make and use your own icons files:

List, and describe with examples, all the settings available in a modelxx.ini file to use these icons
List tools and provide the special instructions to generate the Deviation .bmp files - existing document to be updated

Last edit: 12 Apr 2013 11:31 by RandMental.

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domcars0
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12 Apr 2013 15:57 #8901 by domcars0

Replied by domcars0 on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

RandMental wrote: I must admit reading through the options proposed and counter proposals I have difficulty in forming a picture of the final implications and effects in the real world.

Please humor me as I start at the beginning using the 80/20 user principle: (apologies where this is a repeat of suggestions already made):

The most critical aspect of this discussion/feature needs to be a consistent and logical (intuitive) method/process using icons-

assigning a TX switch and each switch status, to icons

assigning a screen location to a switch and switch statuses

(This I believe were mostly in place, but were broken in the V3 release)

I think you forget another important aspect : model.ini compatibility between
TX. At this time if I configure the toggle switches icons for a model on my Devo 10 and if you put this model.ini file on your Devo8, toggle switches icons will be bad.

Devo 10 (+7e) owner. It's mine, please don't touch it with your big fingers

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PhracturedBlue
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12 Apr 2013 16:57 #8902 by PhracturedBlue

Replied by PhracturedBlue on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

domcars' point is actually the only one that I'm really concerned with. I want to ensure that models can be handed off between transmitters (and between Deviation versions) without issue.

I can't say I'm enthused by rbe's solution. This icon stuff is a reasonably minor capability in the scope of Deviation. Adding a lot of complexity to the code to deal with these 'power user' cases doesn't make much sense to me. I'm much more likely to just modify my icon-list solution than to add a bunch of rules in the code. Perhaps a minor alteration that I like better is a solution where we have:
icon0.bmp
icon1.bmp
icon2.bmp
icon3.bmp
etc
deviation reads each one in and concatenates them together.
files from '0' are assigned an index 0-99
files from '1' are assigned an index 100-199
and so on.
Now we can provide icon0,1,2 and he users can add their own, and there is no requirement in the code to know anything other than which file a given icon came from.

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RandMental
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12 Apr 2013 17:37 - 12 Apr 2013 17:45 #8903 by RandMental

Replied by RandMental on topic toggle.bmp needs a 'standard'

domcars0 wrote: I think you forget another important aspect : model.ini compatibility between
TX. At this time if I configure the toggle switches icons for a model on my Devo 10 and if you put this model.ini file on your Devo8, toggle switches icons will be bad.

I believe I did provide for this by naming (abstracting) the switches using the Walkera (heli based) names on the actual TX, irrespective of how they are connected in the hardware or currently named/enumerated. Thus RUDD D/R switch is always assigned to the DR icons, irrespective of the TX. If a TX model don't have that switch or a switch status is not supported, it and the icon are not used as is currently the case.

Edit: Of course the Walkera naming will require a per TX map, and with the build process already implementing Devo TX specific rules, it should be simple matter to add a 10 switch lookup table for the default case I proposed.
(As PB also remarked above it is a minor feature of the Deviation and n ot worth complicating.)

Am I missing something?

Last edit: 12 Apr 2013 17:45 by RandMental.

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